New DS owner, share your experience of the DAC running in from new?

Audio Components DACs
21
jaiello said

I don’t think I have ever owned a piece of high end equipment that didn’t need burn in. Kind of surprised to hear you say that you never had anything that required burn in. Many people say that the DAC really starts to open up after 500 hours. I just got a pair of the Focal Clear headphones and the recommended break in period on those was 200 hours. YMMV. Enjoy getting to know your new DAC.

I get it. Maybe I over reacted. I've been a music lover and into gear since I was about 14 years old.. My dad was a music fan and audio geek... he had a custom built amp and speaker done for him in the late 50s (something you had to do back then if you wanted good stuff)....... got me hooked. Now 45 years later I am still into it. What I learned: I am both a zealot and skeptic.

Issue: Emotions when buying new equipment. This is a big factor in what you hear and how you react… over the short term. Buying this stuff can be an emotional experience particularly today when it is almost impossible to listen before you buy… just awful. So… I had big expectations when I purchased the Junior… I shouldn’t because of my experiences and that I have a great system already with two highly rated digital components to A/B/C compare.

In the past, the new/replacement stuff I purchased was always very different and sounded very different (I moved to only tubes now). So when you purchase a new amp for example, the sound was always very different when new. Did it sound different because it needed to be burned in or was it really a different sounding piece of equipment? I could not really be sure. In time, a new piece of equipment would change so burn in?.. but I am a skeptic too so maybe it was me adapting to the new sound? What I can say for sure is that none of the new pieces I purchased over the years ever sounded bad new… just different. (Edit: actually not true… I had a Sonic Frontiers DAC I liked and sent it back for an upgrade at the recommendation of Robert Harley in Stereophile… boy was I pissed…)

This Junior sounded poor out of the box relative to the two very good DACs I already had. And, given my emotions of buying an expensive piece of equipment I never heard before, well I was pretty crushed (an over reaction?). The Junior had a big improvement in just 24 hours of being always on… so I am giving it a chance. No doubt it is more detailed than my Accuphase and Benchmark. But for me, I have learned “musicality”, particularly in the midrange, is most important to me and the toughest for a piece to achieve.

So… as a skeptic reading reviews and comments for years now, when someone says “blown away” I just dismiss their comments. Maybe they didn’t have great stuff and a new piece, without burn in, really did sound way better than what they had… but this hyperbole is not, to me, valid.

So… I am optimistic (an emotion?) about this Junior… time will tell (is it emotions dying down and clearing my ears or improvement from burn in?).

Peace

Bruce in Philly

22

Bruce lots of places will give you 30 or 60 days to return stuff if you don’t like it (think Music Direct). I ended up liking my Junior so much I ended up returning it for a senior. That said the Directstream DAC (junior or senior) is a wonderful piece but by no means the last word in resolution. Big buck items like the dCS family of products do sound better but at several times the price I would expect that to be so. Enjoy your new toy.

23

“Crushed” and “blown away” are merely the two sides of the hyperbole coin which is high-end audio.

24

A few things I’ve learned since installing my DS DAC

Burn-in is a very real thing and I started noticing significant improvements after (wag)100 hours. I went from being somewhat disappointed to completely pleased with my purchase.

The balanced outputs give a significant improvement over the rca especially at lower volume levels.

The DAC is surprisingly sensitive to power, especially if you’re using the preamp. The cleaner the power, the better the cord, the better the sound.

25
Elk said

“Crushed” and “blown away” are merely the two sides of the hyperbole coin which is high-end audio.


Zealot and skeptic. Our isomorphic duality. Time will tell. Emotions will ebb… so the emotions can return and I can enjoy the music.

Peace

Bruce in Philly

26

I’ve had my DS for about a week and it has been streaming constantly from my Roon ROCK server via USB. I’d say I have about 140 hours on it. My dealer was out of stock of the Bridge II but he’s sending one my way when he gets them in.

Things I love:

  1. The solidity of the center image was really shocking to me. Previous DACs have always seemed a bit more ethereal in their conveyance of positioning, but performers are very well-defined.

  2. Incredible amounts of spatial detail. Instruments and vocalists seem 3-dimensional on the soundstage as opposed to “cardboard cut-outs” like you get with many DACs.

  3. Wide, deep soundstage. The speakers have “disappeared” for the first time. Funny how big of a difference DACs can make in regards to soundstage.

Things I don’t love:

  1. It’s slightly dull and un-engaging right now. I’m used to a bit more warmth, so this might be a brain burn-in.

  2. Something in top end seems a bit emphasized and is bright and fatiguing. Everything from bass to midrange is perfect, but once you get to the upper mids and higher there’s an emphasis on some frequencies that makes me wince. My room is fully treated with GIK Acoustics panels and traps, and I’m using Dirac with a pretty forgiving curve, so room interactions shouldn’t be a problem. I can’t imagine using a more neutral-sounding preamp with the DS without it being unlistenably bright. I’m tempted to throw some Mullard CV4003s in the preamp to see if it helps, but I’m not loving the idea of spending another chunk of change on expensive tubes to address this.

I’m not a huge believer in burn-in, but will the last two issues improve with additional run-time beyond the 140+ hours I have on it now? I’m leaning toward selling it and moving on to something that doesn’t give me listening fatigue but I’m hoping to change my mind as I simply have never had better imaging, detail retrieval and soundstage in my listening room.

1 Like
27

Question for Paul McGowan: What feedback/questions do you get from customers regarding DAC burn in? Or more specifically, are new owner’s questions traceable to underlying burn in issues?

So an update: My Junior is one week old… I never put into standby and play it every evening for a few hours minimum. One or two of the past days, I played it pretty much all day. I don;t know what that equates to in hours or if playing is any different that always on.

How it has changed: Hour one was not good… next day was way different… one week later, I am still being surprised at how the sound is changing. It is getting better albeit at a slowing rate and I am enjoying the unit. Last night was a new surprise, I put on a poorly engineered CD and was annoyed by the bright harshness… the Junior? So I hit one button on my PrimaLuna integrated HP and A/B’d with my Accuphase… same… harsh sound. In other words, it is starting to present itself like my reference Accuphase.

So… what to make of this? It is sounding closer to my reference Accuphase… beating it in resolution… bass in the Accuphase is a bit more full… but the Junior is improving. The sound stage and air is better (wider) with the Junior which I attribute to its resolving power being better than the Accuphase.

So, don;t worry Paul, I am not sending it back… but the main test is musicality. For musicality, maybe some distortions are a good thing… hey I love tubes and will never go back… and I know tubes are a bit unimpressive in the distortion category… When I feel the unit is finally stable, I will write a better report.

Peace

Bruce in Philly

28

If you aren’t playing music putting the DAC in standby doesn’t affect it’s burn in time. But playing music while not in standby does help. If you don’t want music running thru the rest of your system unplug the output cables on the DS Jr and turn on the 20dB attenuator (the DAC Level button on the remote.) The 20dB attenuator is simply a 15 ohm shunt to ground of the output so you’ll have a load on the outputs to help with burn-in.

29

Thanx Ted…

Suggestion… I just found out Toslink optical won’t pass higher rez like 176.4khz and 192khz files on my Junior. You may want to publish this in your owner’s manual. I found the spec online in your product description… but wasted some time trouble shooting with the manual.

I am just playing around with different setups and playing some high rez files and ran into this problem. I thought optical would be “better” due to avoiding ground loops or flow. I am trying XLR digital input now.

Those of you who like to A/B/C etc should check out a Mutec device; I use the 1.2. It is passing all bit rates I threw at it so far. I connect it to my Windows computer via USB using a Mutec driver (that has a window showing the sample rate). The back of the Mutec then presents a live signal to a bunch of different outputs… no switching required. From there I go to my Junior, Accuphase, and Benchmark DACs. Each of the DACs go to PrimaLuna HP Integrated. Foobar on the PC (free!!).
So I can play a tune in Foobar and the same signall, bit-for-bit, is passed to all three DACs at the same time. No need to restart a tune, you just select.

Keep in mind when you A/B two products, you must level match them first. I noted above I use an old Realistic sound pressure meter and play a 1Khz tone… very easy to do.

https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-12.php
https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php

Peace
Bruce in Philly

30

TOSLink was speced for 44.1 and 48k. It typically works up to 96k, but with reasonable cables (and a little luck) it works fine to 192k. I have some cables that came with VCRs that won’t pass anything better than 96k. I have 1 “audiophile” cable which passes 176.4 but not 192 and most of my TOSLink cables do fine at 192k. YMMV

One thing I like about my Switchman MC preamp is that I can trim each input’s levels independently - so I can set up an A-B that works well with just an input selection (after initial setup.) I also have a 8 x 16 TOSLink & S/PDIF crossbar switch - it’s great for sending the same bitperfect signal to multiple devices. Unfortunately it’s no longer being manufactured.

31

My Junior is two weeks old…. Tips for noobs and update on sound…Foobar

In short, I am really enjoying this unit and happy I purchased it …. But all was not good at the start as it needs to burn in.
Mostly, I play 44.1 CDs ripped bit-for-bit to my NAS with a smattering of higher-rez formats. I do not use any streaming services. The link to the Junior is via USB out of my computer where I play using Foobar (see below for more details on this hookup). I have no desire right now to use ethernet or other network tools/players/controllers. I have three DACs in my system right now, a Benchmark DAC1 USB, An Accuphase DP-55V, and the PS Audio Junior.

The sound: I already had a very very analog and music DAC, and Accuphase DP-55V so the bar was very high. Don’t let anyone tell you that if your DAC is old, the technology has advanced and the old one is no good. My Accuphase was out circa 2002 for about $4,800 and was/is one of the most musical and analog DACs I have ever heard (the Ayre products were actually a bit better to my ear). So I really took a chance by ordering the Junior. The Junior is better than the Accuphase in all ways … but not by much.
If your DAC is say like my Benchmark DAC1 USB, then you will be very happy with the Junior. I purchased the Benchmark because I thought, given the years gone by, it would be way better than my Accuphase and the reviews were very complimentary of the unit. Blah. It is hard to find any technical fault with the Benchmark but it just sounds a bit flat, lifeless and not real musical.
The Junior beats all other DACs I have heard in that it has more resolution…. More space… and remains natural sounding…. Note that most of my listening is 44.1 bit-for-bit rips from my CDs. To be fair to my Accuphase, it does not “blow it away”…. Nope but it does a bit more good all around. Throw in the versatility on way many ways to hook it up, play virtually any format, and this is a great machine. Images are bit wider, there is more air, and I can follow individual instruments easier. I attribute this to just more resolving power. It does this without being bright.

TIPS for the NOOB: This unit requires burn in. Keep in mind, I have a world class DAC already, so the bar was high. Here is what I recommend you do when you buy a new DirecStream DAC (I am assuming a USB hookup):

1 – Immediately, read PS Audio’s USB setup http://www.psaudio.com/ps_how/how-to-fix-usb-connectivity-issues-with-dacs/ and load the PS Audio USB driver

2a – If you have Foobar (other player should have similar settings), select File/Preferences/Playback/Output/Device “DSD : KS : PS Audio USB 2.0 Output” (there will be another PS Audio driver, but the DSD will allow all formats), turn your volume to 100 and never use it (I hide it) and remove all sound processors from File/Preferences/Playback/DSP Manager…. Active DSP list should be blank…. Nothing. File/Preferences/Playback Replay Gain should be None/None, 0.0/0.0. In other words, “turn off all that greasy kid stuff”.

2b – The driver does “kernel streaming” which means Foobar takes complete control of the sound in your PC out to the USB. You will no longer hear your PC beep or play stupid cat videos on YouTube. If you want to hear this stuff, and I do, I installed a small cheepo set of powered speakers hooked to my PC’s soundcard ports. Then open windows volume control where you can select an output device. Do not select the PS Audio drivers or Foobar (or your player) will not work. You can now hear your Junior via Foobar via USB and now hear your computer beep or YouTube coming from your cheapo speakers all at the same time.

3 – Run a bit perfect test using BOTH PS Audio test files. This will ensure your settings in your player and in Windows device manager are correct. Follow the instructions here: http://www.psaudio.com/ps_how/how-to-run-a-bit-perfect-test-with-directstream/
Test files here (note the Junior will display an “B” in the upper right if bit perfect): http://www.psaudio.com/support/downloads/
Read my post here where I had an issue and Ted’s responses: Ripping DSD from SACD

  1. Wait two weeks before passing judgement on the Junior. Ted gives some advice on how to burn in faster, see link above in my post. I played the unit every evening and most of the full days on the weekends to get it to sound “correct”.

  2. I used a few different cables and hook ups … I go from my PC via USB to a Mutec 1.2 where I can hook all three of my DACs at once using different hook up methods. Then I can A/B/C them with just a button on my PrimaLuna HP Integrated Amp…. Anywho… I never heard any difference with cables. None. I tried optical and found it would not pass higher rez files… see my link above with Ted’s response.

My initial impression was not good. The unit was “cold” and I just installed it…. Did not even have thermal stability. My heart sank…. The bass was missing… the sound flat…. The highs were just not right. Oh oh…… in 24 hours the thing started perking up and sounded OK…. Bass was still missing. I began to think my Accuphase may have more bass bloom…… but in a solid two weeks, the bass is there and good, equal with my Accuphase now. To try and understand the unit better, I played some test sweeps I have on a few test CD I own. A Focal test CD has some sweeps in bass, mid, treble areas so I could sweep the bass and compare across my three DACs. The Junior was definitely not right in the beginning.
In sum…… I am very happy with Junior now… I can find no fault with it. The hardest thing for DACs to do is be musical. I can’t tell you, technically, what this means, but some units (expensive ones) can have it but I never heard an inexpensive device have this quality…. You just have to write a big check.

OK, some anecdotal fun stuff:
Play Gimme Shelter with headphones (I have Grado RS-2s)… no, the Junior won’t make a muddy Stones recording good, but it is fun to hear the instruments more clearly and Mick and Merry’s voices separate. Cool.
For killer stereo, play Nina Simone’s first record Little Girl Blue… I have it on SACD…. Almost too much stereo for headphones. Fun.
For audiophile test records… I have three I play. Not for the music but for the recordings: Jennifer Warnes “The Hunter” only tracks “Rock you Gently” and “Way Down Deep” (Her album Famous Blue Raincoat with all Leonard Cohen tunes is really a good album and Stevie Ray Vaugh plays on “First we Take Manhatten”)… Casino Royal is out on CD and is a good transfer… “The Look of Love” is a famous audio nerd track…… Then both for the music and the imaging try Dave Brubeck “Unsquare Dance” off of “Time Further Out”…. There is some studio expander/compression or noise gates going on in there but it is just a great tune in 7 time and has killer imaging and detail.

A note on my Accuphase…. The unit is a CD player with digital “ins”. I found out the digital ins did not buffer and re-clock the signal so it was really subject to awful jitter issues. I contacted Accuphase to confirm my suspicions. I solved for this by installing a Mutec 1.2 between it and my computer. Prior to the Mutec, I used an Audio Alchemy device for jitter reduction.

I hope this helps some folks.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

2 Likes
32

Hi there, I am new here. I bought a DS 2 weeks ago. Previously I had a cary audio dmc 600. My streamer is an Auralic Aries and it is connected to DS with a cardas clear usb cable. The DS has a cardas clear power m cable and it is connected to an Ayre VX-5 power amplifier. With cardas golden reference the power amplifier is connected to a pair of proac d30 ribbon.

I installed immediately Redcloud firmware. In the first hours of usage the unit was cold and sounde harsh. After a few hours the situation improved, but is sounded “closed” (sorry, I am Italian and English is not my mother tongue :slight_smile:).

After two weeks, and maybe 50 hours of usage it sounds really great!
I think that it one of my best buy, and I have bought many components:slight_smile:

I am particularly happy because I can get rid of the preamplifier (ayre k5-xmp), which, in my opinion, adds just a bit of noise and distortion. My impression is that without the pre the music sounds more natural and closer to the real. I often go to concerts, I guess I have a reasonably good idea of how real music sounds. Yesterday I attended a concert with Isabelle Faust and Alexandel Melnikov playing Brahms vilin sonatas - btw - it was really fantastic!

I have not yet bought the bridge card because I am waiting for the bridge 3 card, and my auralic sounds good. I mostly steam tidal and have a disc attached to the aries with 1TB of, mostly, cd that I ripped in aiff.

I am happy to be in this community. I read some of your posts and found a lot of useful info, obviously ted’s ones are super!
Cheers
Francesco

1 Like
33

You are exceedingly fortunate! In Berlin?

34

Actually in my town: Trento, in Italy :slight_smile:
Isabelle was speaking a bit of Italian. She likes to come here and she collaborates with an association called “The sounds of the Dolomites”; they organize concerts in open space in the mountains. Very nice experience. You hike with the playes, reach a bueatiful place in front of a wonderful landscape, and the relax and listen a concert.

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35

This would be wonderful. They are talented performers. I have a number of her recordings. They are all superb.

36

You’re right. And listening to Isabelle’s stradivari is really a big emotion. Her violin is called “the sleeping beauty” because stayed for 150 years in a box without being played. I don’t know who found it; but I guess, finding this violin was a big surprise :slight_smile:

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37

I am very jealous. She is amazing. I did not know of her violin.

I a couple of months ago I attended a reception for a Spanish violinist who plays a Strad. He played for us. i was perhaps three meters away. A delicious experience.

Thank you for sharing!

1 Like
38

Hi Ted, Can I just play music through the DSJ but not have my preamp on to allow for burn-in when I am not listening to it? Thanks

39

I am not Ted, but yes. If you engage the -20dB attenuator you make the DSJ work a little harder as well, perhaps speeding up burn-in.

40

Thanks for your response. Currently my Attenuator setting is “out.” Does this mean it is already engaged to -20 dB? If so, does it matter whether my XLR cables are attached?