Not in the same league

Audio Components
247

The rules for Stereophile reviewers is only the gear being tested in the system can be new. You can’t very well tell what a piece of gear sounds like if you swap out lots of pieces. Are you suggesting if someone is to test a piece of gear they should create a new system with all gear in the same price range? $2000 DAC means the amp can only cost, what? That would be absurd!

If someone wanted me to test a piece of gear I would add it to my system. How would you do it?

A little ado about nothing. Find something worthwhile to object to. Hunger perhaps.

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248

Returning to my initial quest at the top of this topic…

What makes the ultra-priced, ultra-heavy components appear in ‘reference systems’ over PSA products? I am aware of good reviews for PSA components, but as noted here earlier, these reviews seem more like infomercials/press releases, not reliable/meaningful comparisons to ‘reference systems’. I read often in this forum that it is unfair to compare PSA components with those costing multiples more; eg, price enables Magico/Wilson etc sound better. If true, why?

How are Boulder/Constellation/Block/Dagastino/Pass amps better than PSA’s BHK600? How are MBL/Constellation/MBS/Esoteric/etc DACs better than PSA’s MarkII? Similar questions also for pre-amps, SACD transports, cables, etc. Does superior price really usually have superior sound?

I may be answering my own questions by noting that I like the sound of planar/ribbon combos like Magneplanar (with subwoofer), Clarisys, and MBL (a league of its own) rather than boxes. I also appreciate my Koetsu Onyx over all other cartridges. I enjoy most: vertical stage, instrument separation (even among the same instrument in an orchestra), and ‘extraneous sounds’ like a breath, performer mistake, ruffling of papers, or dropping something.

If I wasn’t grounded by my Brittany, I would travel to Boulder to, hopefully, hear PSA’s FR30 pronto…and see what I could hear across ‘big gear’ in the Boulder area: PSA, Boulder, Aurender, and others. (and, of course, I would enjoy meeting Paul, whose videos and audio and societal philosophies I admire)

I recognize that there is no component better than all others in all circumstances.

249

I read a review in Stereophile of Harbeth speakers that I’d purchased a few months earlier and they were tested in two different systems in two different rooms. So rules are clearly broken. It was also a pretty stupid review because one of the amplifiers was way below the minimum power specification of the speakers.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker-page-2

The latest edition of HiFi News & Record Review, a random product - the iFi Audio NEO Stream - and the reviewer tested it with two different amplifiers, a Sony TA-A1ES and a Primare I15 through B&W 703 S3. In the previous issue he reviewed a £2,000 turntable with a Hegel H590.

In the same issue, Andrew Everard reviews the reference Musical Fidelity amplifiers with dCS Vivaldi and B&W 801D4. When he tested a HiFi Rose unit in the previous issue he used two different amplifiers, Naim and Marantz.

Same elsewhere. Reviewers do use their own reference kit but they tend also to use alternatives that they think people interested in the product might actually own or consider owning, and sometimes recommend what a product may best be partnered with.

Seems you are best placed here to finance the end of world hunger.

250

Don’t presume price always matters. I was in my dealer and some guy came in and bought $500,000 of gear in an hour, probably didn’t look at the price. More recently when he was round at my house he was selling a $350,000 pair of speakers, the client had them at home on trial for a month, but there was a massive negotiation over price.

Bear in mind that brand distributors will usually be paying the marketing costs, so a retailer may well prefer to sell those products that he does not have to independently promote, even if they cost more.

There are a lot of high-end dealers near me and I find they avoid selling directly competing high-end products, because they cannot explain the differences.

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251

If perhaps you are thinking of Stereophile’s recommended list of components…
I just took a peek there and low and behold PS Audio’s BHK Signature 300 is
in the Class A of recommended products…

Then again so is Bel Canto’s e1x Class D amp very light weight as compared to
analogue amps…
Then there is the Benchmark AHB2 not very expensive comparitively…
Then there is Parasound which has for decades their A21 stereo and JC1
monoblocs on their Class A recommended …

So PS Audio does have presence in the recommended Class A…

Just adding to the chat

Best wishes

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252

He did mention that the 25watt/channel amp was pre-approved by the U.S. Harbeth distributer. He also described a slight anomaly he heard in his listening room, and moved the speakers to a different room with a different amp to see if the slight anomaly followed with the speakers or whether the slight anomaly was more because of his room. Art was being thorough in that regard versus “breaking rules”. He also liked the Harbeth speakers. In summing them up, Art said “For the listener who wants a loudspeaker that is both explicit and truthfully beautiful, the Harbeth Super HL5plus is an excellent choice.”

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253

The Harbeth website at the time stated the speakers were rated minimum 35w. The amp was under-powered per the manufacturer specification. Plus, you will struggle to find any love for tube amplifiers amongst Harbeth owners - I used those speakers with 35w valve mono blocks and they massively under-performed compared to a $600 Quad 909 that I very soon used in their place.

Worst, the reviewer said he did the review mostly with the grilles removed, and Harbeth have always been quite explicit that the grilles affect the sound and should not be removed.

Even the Croft Integrated was a bit underpowered.

TAS reviewed the same speaker at that time and used Quad 909 and the Benchmark AHB2 amplifiers, which were prefect choices, amplifiers commonly used by Harbeth owners and totally appropriate. (Harbeth have always used Quad amplifiers in the design process.)

p.s. They are great speakers, I had no hesitation selling the aforementioned bespoke 35w quality tube mono blocks, and kept the speakers until recently, only selling as my wife hated the styling.

254

Since “some” people claim to not hear a difference whether the Harbeth grilles are on or off, everyone else must be imagining that there is a difference, lol

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255

Or perhaps maybe either their hearing is fading some or their audio
environment doesn’t allow them to hear those subtleties…like Rob_W’s
listening space…

However since home audio is to recreate the music we enjoy…and phantom
center channels are there…it is all illusion or is it an imagination?

With my system I really enjoy the “illusions” it creates with music…
Hmmm it seems I recall PSB speakers had a line of speaker called Imagine …
imagine that how about…

Fun ain’t it…

Best wishes

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256

I believe the M1200’s are in the Stereophile Class A category also.

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257

Isoacoustic Gaia sells a adapter for carpet with spikes that grip so your speaker isolation still works.

258

Thanks Paul172

Yes indeed saw them there as well but forgot to mention in my previous post…

Best wishes

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259

And imagine you were listening to John Lennon…

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260

Ja ja ja…very illusional… :rofl:

Best wishes

261

From the designer - they are designed for flat frequency response with the grilles on. The grille affects the frequency response.

Screenshot 2023-02-27 at 17.22.54
Screenshot 2023-02-27 at 17.22.542318×322 123 KB

The reviewer should respect how the speaker is designed to be used. The grille is attached in the factory and is designed to be extremely difficult to remove without damaging the speaker. In 7 years I never removed the grille.

The reviewer obviously removed the grille on the presumption that it would make the speaker sound better. In fact the opposite is true. He just didn’t understand that aspect of the design.

262

I don’t criticize a reviewer for listening with the grilles off the speakers.
I also don’t criticize a reviewer that discusses the usage of an amp with the speaker distributer, and the distributer says that amp should work just fine driving the speakers, and then reports that in the review, and then likes the speaker.
I also don’t criticize a reviewer for being thorough.

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263

You ask: “How are Boulder/Constellation/Block/Dagastino/Pass amps better than PSA’s BHK600? How are MBL/Constellation/MBS/Esoteric/etc DACs better than PSA’s MarkII? Similar questions also for pre-amps, SACD transports, cables, etc. Does superior price really usually have superior sound?”

Well, first you have to define the parameters for “better” IMO. I liken the difference between PS Audio and the über priced brands you mention as the something like the difference between Phillipe Patek and a Certina or Tissot watch. If you watch videos about factory visits to manufacturers like DartZeel, Constellation, etc. you see a higher level of obsessiveness over every manufacturing and design detail compared to lower priced gear. None of those factors necessarily translate to “better” sound it sure means MUCH higher production costs, especially if you’re in a very high labor cost environment like Switzerland or Germany. If you have the time, this video of DartZeel’s factory gives a pretty good insight into why they cost so much.

Inevitably, such factors make those with deep pockets who make status conscious purchasing decisions favor them. I’d also say there’s no comparison between the aesthetic quality of casework, design, etc.of the high priced brands and PS Audio. Even the interior circuit design, assembly, etc. of many of those brands are like a work of art. Even though I’ve purchased quite a few PS Audio products I think their casework design choices are utilitarian, cost conscious, and rather mundane in comparison to most of their competitors. Casework contributes a big proportion of the cost of a component.

Also, I think most of us who’ve spent some time really listening to the brands you mention find that there is often a bit more resolution, detail, etc. to be heard from brands like Ypsilon, Constellation, etc. I and others think it’s debatable whether that trend is moving audio in an enjoyable and satisfying direction though.Quite a number of very expensive systems I’ve heard sound excessively analytical and aren’t long term enjoyable to me.

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264

He actually criticises the bass, which he says was better through his 1960s Altec Valencia speakers. Those Altec are rated 97.5dB sensitivity compared to the Harbeth 86dB. No wonder his go-to amplifier is 25w. If he’d used a proper amplifier like TAS did, maybe he wouldn’t have criticised the bass response.

The distributor was wrong. Anyone who’s used those speakers with a 25w amp, even my 35w amp, will tell you the bass gives up and sounds like a wet fart. He described the speakers as a bit “forward”, which is usually a slightly boosted upper end. This would have been caused by removing the grilles.

So his criticisms were because he was using the wrong amplifiers and had removed the grilles that should have been left on. It would have been a better review if he’d done it properly.

This guy got it wrong because he chose to use his own amplifier rather than checking what would be more appropriate, and his preconceived ideas about grilles that do not apply to this speaker. As the designer says, it’s counter-intuitive.

TAS did not make these mistakes. I remember we discussed the TAS review on the User Group, but not the Stereophile one, for obvious reasons.

It’s a good illustration of the difference between good and bad subjective reviews and the nonsense of using the reviewer’s equipment when not appropriate.

p.s. Why did he even mention he got permission to use his 25w amplifier? Because he knew it was underpowered. He was passing the blame.

265

Most of Switzerland is like that. I’ve been to cleaner service stations in Switzerland.

My dealer recently stocked DartZeel. He also stocks Soulution and D’Agostino. Same sort of prices, completely different aesthetic. It’s an interesting question - one day I’ll ask him if it’s more aesthetic than sound with these products.

266

This is making a big diarrea out of a fart.
He liked the speaker, said it was wonderful, said the bass was wonderful, and even described in great detail how wonderful the bass is, on a speaker you have and like (or had and liked?).
He described the speakers as being startling clear, with great detail and pace and timing with ease and beauty, and you’re criticizing the reviewer as making mistakes?? There is a lot of discussion regarding whether people prefer grilles on or off with Harbeth’s. Enough that if one prefers grilles on, it’s ok, if one prefers grilles off, it’s ok. One comment online that I found hysterical is that they kept grills off until they purchased better cables, then they left the grilles on.

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