Wonder if that logic still applies if one has the DSD MkI? Although my MkI has upgraded transformers and caps, so upgrading the pre might still be the way to go.
Hopefully Paul will respond on that as i never listened to the MKI. I went from JR to MK2 and that was a big upgrade.
Honestly Paul, I don’t see how this could get any better adding the PMG pre. With all the detail, soundstage and realism already there how could adding something in the chain be that much better? I know you have said that many times, but it is just counter intuitive to me. I have been wrong before so… My system is all digital with no need for a preamp.
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What you describe in terms of “the absence of something” being telling is exactly how I gauge the effrct of tweaks. Sometimes it’s difficult to tell if a tweak is actually doing anything until I take it out. Not sure why this happens but I think you’ve hit that nail on the head.
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I, too, find it counterintuitive that adding a pre can improve the sound. But it can.
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I second that emotion. Counterintuitive, yes, but it works, yes. Both the PMG 512 and the Grimm MU2 benefit with an “added” preamp. And, both these units have a serious analog gain stage, not the potentially noisy digital one as seen in the MK1 and MK2.
More is more (my mantra of late). It just is.
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What you say about the MKlls potentially noisy digital output stage is theoretically true but, for the life of me, I can’t seem to hear any of that with mine even at low volumes. Probably one of those things that you can’t hear it until it’s gone.
So i have another burning question. Would running the PMG DAC directerly into my amp sound better than my BHK pre and upgraded DSD MkI? If so I could sell both which could go towards the new DAC.
Absolutely, I had a MKiI feeding the BHK pre and the PMG 512 feeding my amp directly is so far superior. I sold my AirLens and BHK and returning the MKII with no regrets. Go for it!
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Thanks for your feedback, the cobwebs have been cleared, and I see the path forward.
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And the next step after that is adding a PMG preamp
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I agree with all the above parties, and I would add theses exercises are academic until you try it.
Proof of the pudding, as they say.
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How does the built in streamer in the PMG 512 compare to say, my Sonore Optical Rendu connected to an Ultimate Digital which is connected to the I2S port on the DAC ? In the former case, you lose the optically isolated ethernet, which is definitely a concern.
It boggles my mind too, and honestly, I don’t like it. And I don’t like it because it punctures my worldview of how everything should (and is) working.
If the 512 and its analog volume control sounds as amazing as it does (and as you’ve verified too), and adding a preamp like the PMG Signature in the chain—a preamp that has the exact same analog volume control at its output as the PMG 512—takes the entire performance up a notch, it breaks all the rules. It does not compute (as Mr. Spock would have said).
And yet, this is one of the reasons we have always been guided more by our ears and less by our beliefs in how the world works.
The lesson for me continues to be the realization that our entire belief system of explaining to ourselves how everything works and why (in life, politics, and HiFi) is all based on a combination of ignorance, partial truths, and incorrect facts.
Think back to when you were a young child. Your model of how everything worked and why made absolute sense to you back then. Until it didn’t.
In any case, I cannot say I understand it. I just hear it and yes, it is counterintuitive. That said, the good news is that the 512 is SO good straight into your power amplifier that you can be fine sticking with that and never look back. The addition of the PMG Pre as a means of elevating the listening experience will appeal to a certain group of whack jobs like me. Nothing to feel bad about at all!
Enjoy!
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I’m a big fan of the Rendu streamers - ran a micro, ultra and optical for quite awhile. I switched to the Lumin U2 last spring for something different and to try and eliminate a box or two. The Lumin U2 runs off of an Uptone etherregen switch via direct attach cable, then usb to dac. Love it, very musical, quiet and detailed, handles anything you throw at it. Used the Lumin U2 the first week the PMG DAC was here, everything sounded great once the DAC settled in after a few days.
I switched over to the internal streamer at the beginning of this week. At first I found it somewhat flat and uninvolving, sounded a bit drier and more clinical - however after listening to a variety of recordings I’ve concluded that it depends on the source material. Not as forgiving as the U2, but very revealing and a bit more forward than the U2. After 5 days of listening to the internal streamer I think it complements the DAC really well.
If you like the rendu “sound” I think you’ll find this combo to be pretty pleasing to the ear. You could always drop an OpticalModule in front of it for isolation.
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As I previously wrote, this is a really tough one as the PMG Preamplifier’s performance, as compared to the BHK preamplifier, is so huge as to be almost unexplainable. A giant leap that one has to hear to understand. It’s like someone else mentioned about noise they don’t hear—and until you hear the difference you don’t notice the “problem”.
Now, the chasm of improvement between the DirectStream and the PMG 512 is a smaller one—unless you were using a DirectStream straight into your power amplifier (as I used to), in which case the leap is almost as big as the aforementioned preamp.
But words aren’t adequate to explain it all. Take for example what I just wrote about the DAC chasm. Reading it back, one might think the improvement level between DirectStream II (and absolutely between DS1) and the PMG 512 isn’t all that big. And one would be wrong. Just read some of the reviews of folks getting them into their systems. I wrote that in a feeble attempt at explaining different chasm sizes: Grand Canyon versus Black Canyon—both are enormous, one more than the other.
I don’t know if this makes any sense and I apologize if I am confusing.
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Having never tried the Sonore I cannot accurately tell you, but I will say from what I have heard, the AirLens clearly beats the Rendu, is fully galvanically isolated (as your optical device is).
That said, I can tell you without question the built in streamer in the 512 handily beats the AirLens. So, take it for what it’s worth.
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I know all these questions must be driving you crazy Paul but one more. PMG dac straight into amp sound better than with BHK pre in the path or MK2 with PMG pre into amp?
Paul, I appreciate your taking the time to explain your experiences and feelings on this.
I’ve done some sound mixing and mastering and I remember experimenting with the Aphex Aural Exciter back in the 80’s.It was billed as a device to add a sort of added presences to music and vocals. It worked to some extent if used sparingly, but in reality it was really adding a form of distortion. I’m certainly not implying that the PMG pre is adding distortion, but it is definitely adding something which is what your are hearing. So, if it works why not!
I have friends from Florida up for a visit and last night we had a listening session and they were totally blown away with the sound. The PMG DAC was the star of the show. This is the first time my wife has heard the system with the new DAC and her jaw dropped. I did not have to worry about the cost of the DAC. I do love the analog volume control it simplifies my system. By the way, we are all whack jobs in this hobby. Stay well my friend.
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I have a feeling that running the PMG DAC directly into the amp would sound better than running it through the BHK pre. Hopefully someone can verify.