Are there really any point-to-point wired components with wire that is actually of proper quality when considering all the important parameters that cabling should fulfill for optimal signal transmission, such as geometry above simple solid cores or stranded wires in a twist, the best possible dielectrics, conductor materials like OCC, et cetera?
I know the lengths are short inside components, sure, but I don’t think that’s an excuse. When we have components costing hundreds of thousands, how come we don’t really see PROPER wire inside them?
I’d just love to see a totally unaffordable point-to-point wired tube amp with OCC silver in air tubes inside it. And what have you.
And really this isn’t of course limited to just entirely point-to-point wired components, there’s some length of wire in almost anything.
Elaborate on your thoughts on how much of a difference this could make.
There are companies that do use high end wiring. For example, I had a Cary Audio SLP98 preamp that had optional Kimber wiring as a factory upgrade.
Also, ZU Audio use their top line “Event” wiring inside some of their speaker line.
My question to add to the mix is how about then connecting the amplifier directly to the loudspeaker with very short <4" of wire?
Essentially the leads going to the amplifier output terminals extended a couple more inches and terminating at the speaker input terminals.
It can only be beneficial with the shorter lengths and less points of contact resistance. Even better, the leads could be ultrasonically cold-welded to the speaker terminals or, even more better, skip the terminals and have the amplifier’s leads just being integral with the crossover, as in, the same wire throughout.
If this was done with very good cable starting from inside the amplifier (I’d say Iconoclast cable) all the way to the drivers, there would certainly be an audible difference considering that people are commonly reporting that they do hear differences between binding posts of different material and construction. None would be best.
Of course, this is more or less done in powered speakers and active speakers, with wire lengths so short that at that scale, group delay coherence and all that jazz should not impose a problem. I just don’t think there exists an active speaker (or a commercial powered speaker) with modules comparable to, say, a Gryphon audio amp. Would be a bit bulky, too…
@rower30
Galen, could you elaborate on what would practically be the longest run of, for example’s sake, a solid core wire of sufficient gauge at the end of a run of Iconoclast speaker cable (so in the crossover) such that it would not at least audibly mess up the benefits of your design?
Everyone with whatever speakers they have of course benefit from the group delay coherence (and everything else) that Iconoclast provides (or any quality cable for that matter), I’m wondering how much the crossovers generally null the benefit.
If I was a rich man… I’d surely rewire my speakers with Iconoclast Gen 2. Some day! I hope you get to design a more cost-effective wire to use in internal wiring, apparently you took into consideration to do that as mentioned in the Dagogo review of Iconoclast.
For now with my limited wealth I’m considering the DNM Resolution solid core for rewiring my crossover. They are of lesser gauge than the stock cabling though and Audio Physic has surely been careful with their choices of crossover cable, maybe I shouldn’t replace the woofer wire with 1,3mm2 as the stock is 2,5mm2 Wireworld cable… Maybe just the tweeter.
All wire, “messes up” stuff. Shorter is better and more small wires in parallel is better for Vp coherence than one fat wire. You want to trick the signal into seeing a higher DCR, but a low overall DCR with the wires in parallel.
Capacitance is, fortunately, in a short section not going to get TOO bad, but to lower inductance keep the wires CLOSE as you can (reduce loop area) and yes, that ups the capacitance, too but lowers L. They go opposite each other sad to say.
I explained all this, with the equations and such, such that it isn’t a secret at all. But yes, how to do it is the hard poart as “L” needs to be maintained as well as C and those aren’t just going to roll over for you.
Well yes, I’ve learned this and a whole lot more from you Galen. I have to sincerely thank you for being a world-class teacher - oh and thanks for the Iconoclasts! I have a relatively modest system (with extremely carefully selected components given the budget) but with your cabling I tend to feel like it could compete with a whole bunch of much pricier setups. Feels like I’ve stepped up into “high-end” somewhat.
Would you care to recommend some suitable cabling to use for crossovers? Hmm, how about rewiring with BAV speaker cable? Something cheaper?
Please give me at least one concrete recommendation.
(Well, yes, it’s not practical at all to use the BAV SC [as it is sold] for internal wiring, but anyway, I’d like some sufficiently flexible cabling that preferably has well-thought-out geometry and either teflon or cotton dielectric, something along those lines. I was considering the DNM for tweeter wiring simply because it’s constructed such that the field has primarily air all around due to minimal use of all material and it’s primarily an inductive cable with a described softer but detailed presentation. The Scanspeak Revelators in my APs are sometimes a bit much for my ears.)
The cheapest would be to find some Ethernet category CMP (plenum) rated 24 AWG cable and take it apart, and weave the wires together with a standard plait braid…like braiding hair.
Use the PLENUM to get a TEFLON dielectric. Weave as many ends as you need for the AWG CMA value.
Mids and tweeters don’t see a lot of power so don’t go overboard. A tweeter sees like 5 watts at most, mids maybe 20 watts of a 100 watt total white noise (equal amplitude at all frequencies).
16 AWG for the mids and 18 AWG for the tweeter is PLENTY of AWG for the current. 14 AWG is plenty for a moderate power (100 watt rated) speaker woofer.
Remember, the wire is SHORT inside the speaker, so voltage drop is small across the resistive cable lead resistive loads (there and back).
Look at the AWG of the wires on the speaker cable COMPONENTS (caps, inductors and resistors) which are all part of the circuit. Ya, the component leads AWG is small…but it is SHORT. Those little wires are in series with the speaker driver leads.
You’ll be well above that with 14, 16 and 18 AWG wire for the speaker drops off the cross-over. More won’t hurt except the heat needed to solder a big fat wire can damage the fragile mid and tweeter speaker solder terminals if you aren’t careful. Don’t over look that point!
Alright…
I can read well and I have good imagination but intuitivelu I dont’t grasp the concept of what I should exactly do here. I’m adamant sure there are no handhdeld video tutorials on this!
I guess I’ll ask my mother to do the “hair braiding” because my fine motor skills might not be so adjusted to the process.
Time to STOP ASKING QUESTIONS AND START DOING. We judge people by what they do and not what they say. Mistakes will be made in the doing but TRUE practicable knowledge, not verbal repitition, is gained. We need to look inward, not outwards, for solutions. Knowledge with no doing is no different than knowing nothing at all.
Go out and look at PLAIT hair braid. Grab a few strings and DO IT. Knowledge + action = success. Being told things is safe, taking that knowledge to action isn’t but it is necessary. Failure is OK, lack of doing isn’t. Why? There is no such thing as a total failure, but there is a total lack of doing.
Thanks for the inspiration Galen.
I admit, I’m lazy and slow to take things into action. I am definitely fighting against those traits on this crazy journey on our blue and green mothership, I PROMISE to myself and others that I’ll get to provide this world with something new and innovative that adheres to known laws of physics and maybe some spice added from the theoretical side. My goal is certainly to become an inventor and even earn something with my less than common ideologies. People call me a genius and I’m like, oh well, I guess I am but as you said, it’s time to start doing. Without any pride I can say that I’m a very innovative thinker, and it IS time to start applying that gift!
We decide who we hang with and that defines who you are. Choose carefully.
We are realized by what we do (and with whom, see number one) and not what we say. Choose carefully.
We leave people and places in equal or better shape than when we arrive or worse (see rule one and two). Choose your actions carefully.
Nothing in my life escapes the social contract I have with myself. I know what my basic purpose is, always. I can’t see getting through life without that foundation for your entire life in place. Often, people start life ONLY after getting a social construct established. Finding one will extend your life and not having one is almost always fatel.
All three require ACTION on your part to become a meaningful adult. All ten commandments can be hard to remember, the above cuts it to just three rules, but are every bit as interlaced.
Trying to make honest and meaningful products to help people enjoy their lives isn’t easy, and it doesn’t get done asking endless questions. It is better to have your action generate the questions than just have strings of empty questions. Action makes questions MEANINGFULL. Action makes the three rules I described above build your social construct and slowly take shape.
You described a direction that is meaningful for you. You told me where you want to end up. I gave you three rules to get there. Put your feet on the ground each morning and decide how you want to be remembered everyday, not just Sunday.
To be honest Galen, considering all your wise words…
I’m currently suffering from some heartfelt issues considering distance from my valentine, at the moment and been like this for some time. It’s taking a toll, it is hard being all alone for weeks, even a month, this winter has been harsh for me. Productivity has been suppressed and not just for a bit.
Doing things, I keep the house warm with wood to avoid huge electric bills, and well, it is warm for me, just me at this time mostly. When what you do is largely for maintaining just yourself and your surroundings, it is easy to slip to the point of not bothering to make meals just for oneself, et cetera, et cetera. I’m basically in a bit of a sensory isolation, well, excluding music of course!
Better times will come, and of course, I’m learning all the time and I have eidetic memory so it’s all sticking firmly to my pool of understanding.
Some people are saying naively that I’ll still be “just learning stuff passively” after ten years or longer but no, I KNOW I know enough at this time that I can definitely put it into use in practice. It’s not that I’m a slacker, my brain is on overdrive all the time and that’s work right there (in Joules), and this is a gift (a curse too)…
Sometimes I feel it’s time to manually put those neuronal microtubule qubits to rest to shift energy consumption to doing things, new things, without all the brain jitter veiling my concentration. It is not hard to admit I need medication for that, don’t really have options because there’s no natural way aside from years of mediation training to help a brain like this to allow working and concentrating on productive doing.
Everyone surely has their problems and solutions with lifting similar veils, this just was my personal story tidbit. I admit, I’m most of the time an idealist I think simply because of so much time spent inside my head. It is a double edged sword but I am extremely grateful for it too.