Position Please

Al is right. The cross talk cancellation algorithm XTC especially when using binaural microphones in your ears at listening position totally removes the majority of your reflective room interaction up to greater than 12 dB. Only then do you get recording space.

Floor to ceiling Line arrays like the IRS or my McIntosh XR290 speakers can remove up to 6 dB of cross talk by overpowering the highs and mids and allowing floor and ceiling cancellation of mid and bass bounce. Thus you get much better imaging over listening to point source at other than near field listening position. The line array also eliminates the mini sized band in a cracker jack box feel by making things more life size.

Bacch DSP with personalized filter calculation, furthers the ability of speakers that don’t rely on 360 degree reflection to image in amazing interpretations that are really enjoyable plus enveloping and life like sizes with heights including giving you the hall or rooms sense of size and space.

3 Likes

You’re welcome!

I have a 24/96 download of Moreno Torroba: Guitar Concertos, Vol 2, with Pepe Romero on guitar. The opening movement has the percussionists doing their thing about 1 minute in. On my system, I can clearly hear that they are at the back of the orchestra. When Romero comes in on guitar, he is clearly in the front. So, I would say this one has good soundstage depth.

1 Like

Downloaded the dad files. After a while, forgot about focusing on the instrument placement. Instead started listening to and enjoying the music in these sampling tracks!
The graphics and tracks selected make for an enjoyable listen.

1 Like

I don’t think I’ve ever heard a classical orchestral recording that artificially placed instruments in locations they weren’t in during the recording process. Given the size of the ensemble, and the fact that they record in one space as a single unit (except for possible edit punch-ins if a soloist screws up), that would be an exceedingly difficult challenge for the engineers to pull off.

Keep in mind, though, that different conductors have different ideas about where on the stage the orchestra sections should be. Thoughts on that have evolved over time, so don’t expect them all to fit one mold. Plus, some recordings are better at distinguishing locations, probably through the choice of mic placements and adjusting levels during the mix.

2 Likes

I seek nothing artificial. I’m allergic to molds.

For orchestras, violins on left, violas on right. I have never been at or in a concert where all performers and instruments sit in the same chair.

BUT, we are at mercy of recording and resolution. Some are elegant and inspired. Others are FWIW.

It’s not always that way. In my close to 20 years supporting and going to Philadelphia Orchestra performances I’ve seen a number of interesting orchestra arrangements. Philly typically plays violas center, cellos right, but on more than one occasion I’ve seen first violins left, second violins right :open_mouth:. All comes down to orchestration and sometimes conductor’s choice.

3 Likes

nothing is always

my pursuit is to assemble reference recordings where performer placement on the audio stage is accurate.

this thread has been largely a bust for finding them, although often throughout the topics/threads, fellow forum friends describe foci/performer position across the stage ‘like live music’

what are they listening to?

Exactly correct.

2 Likes

I’ve seen the same thing with the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra, particularly under its recent principal conductor and music director, Krzysztof Urbanski. He’d also occasionally spread the basses across the back of the stage, rather than have them extreme right (from the audience’s perspective).

2 Likes

I didn’t mean to suggest you were seeking an artificial construct. I got the impression you were reporting having heard such things in classical recordings, and I was just saying those recordings didn’t likely sound that way because of a producer or engineer artificially placing instruments for a purpose. Some recordings are more successful at capturing a discernable soundstage (whether it’s a layout you’re familiar with or not), and others aren’t, for reasons more often related to mic placement and the acoustics of the hall.

And you’re right of course, the performers don’t all sit in the same chair (despite what mono recordings might sound like), but not all systems are capable of such fine resolution that you can readily hear front-to-back placement as easily as side-to-side - that the oboe, for example, can be readily heard to the right of the clarinet and left of the bassoon, but not as readily heard as seated immediately behind a viola. Heck, forget about recordings, from most seats in the house at live performances you can’t make those distinctions easily, at least not without the assistance of visual cues.

9 Likes

Exactly…could not have said this better …Craig…while instrument placement is very important for various symphonies and operas…

On the other hand to be so obsessed with instrument placement that the musical
content, musicanship found in great recordings are not enjoyed because of over
obsessive notion of precise instrument placement…

While members systems are of a high order…they never fail to produce that
level of resolution…mine included.

Like a beautiful panoramic view so ought listening to music be the same…

Best wishes

2 Likes

Akro…we are not listening in the same manner as you, thank God…
We are listening to music…not counting the notes on the staff as they
are played which comprise the music…

Best wishes

1 Like

I have played music since early 60s and attended or played in hundreds of performances and I enjoyed a thousand+ recordings in vinyl and more digital. I know the difference. And I know the difference from a front row seat and the balcony.

I was also linked with the largest hifi store and recording studio in New York for many rears.

Sadly my interest is fully misconstrued. I most certainly am not obsessed.

I was seeking merely a few examples of what folks here report, not expecting all content to present an accurate stage. I have yet to find a single such example and merely hoped for a few references from those here who say they have many.

Generosity seems in short supply.

I have never before been accused of not appreciating the music. I always listen for and play to the music. We don’t need pricy systems to do that.

And Paul routinely praises the stage resolution of all PSA products. I hope to hear such a system at least once.

1 Like

@akro, does it have to be classical?

No, never said so

Non-classical is likely easier to record accurately

A leading candidate should be NATURE’S REALM, tone poems performed in 1999 by The Philadelphia Orchestra under Wolfgang Sawallisch. It is on the Water Lily label with Kavichandran Alexander and Simon Woods as producers, also Robert Greene from TAS as co-producer and Tim de Paravicini as consultant. However you need to adjust your listening triangle so that the speakers subtend 90 degrees, As Dr. Greene explains at length in the current TAS, this is arguably a theoretically superior arrangement as compared to the usual recommendation of less than 60 degrees. This record was an attempt to test some of these ideas in practice.

3 Likes

I forgot about this one! Yeah that’s a good recording for this topic.

1 Like

If after my clarification you find I still misconstrued your intent, you have my apologies. If all you intended was to solicit sample recordings that present a discernible soundstage that clearly reflects the actual position of the musicians in whatever layout the conductor chose, I’ll try to make note of some as I listen and report on them. I know I have quite a few, though I can’t pull them from memory without a confirming listen. Unfortunately, my listening time is shorter these days than I’d like.

2 Likes

Not finding on Qobuz