PS Audio Music Server In The Pipeline?

Network Audio
1409

A LAN port is by its abbreviation a connection to a Local Area Network. The Innuos socket marked “Streamer” is not a LAN port. It is an RJ45 socket for Cat5, Cat6, whatever, hence I just said Cat, which is simply an abbreviation for “Category”.

As shown by my photo at PS Audio Music Server In The Pipeline? above, Innuos have a LAN port marked “LAN” and an RJ45 socket for data line that has nothing to do with the network.

It is increasingly popular to use cables with RJ45 connections for digital data transfer, such as Kii and 8c.

I have zero experience as an IT guy as I work in the financial world, but I do own an Innuos and use its RJ45 connection. I also have two QNAP servers at home and even put in fibre optic cables.

What I do know is that the words server and streamer are often confused and the PS Audio Octave is primarily a streamer, not a server. It does not have to be used as a server at all, but it appears you cannot use it just as a server, bypassing the streaming platform.

It may well prove to be the case that Octave is not a server at all, because a server by definition serves any device on the network. My understanding is that music stored inside the Octave can only be played on the wire-connected DAC, and nowhere else. If that is the case, it is not a server, it’s just a storage device.

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1410

Please know if I was replying to you in person, we’d be drinking a beer :beers: and laughing about these topics. But this made me laugh. Maybe all those servers focus on USB because USB is such a mess to fix and it’s easy to charge big bucks for clocks that don’t matter on an asynchronous output? Look, to each their own. But it’s certainly not because USB is inherently better at data transmission. And the fact that USB is common does not make it desirable in an audio use case. It’s a more convenient, larger market space. That’s all that commends USB.

There is also a reason that dCS, who developed asynchronous USB, will tell you that Ethernet is a better protocol when done correctly and sounds better. Again I mean no personal disrespect, and to each their own. We each get to spend our money the way we want.

Yeah, I am not sure if you are referring to their streamer output, the LAN port, or both, but I am aware of what they claim. I actually like bridged Ethernet ports [wish Melco would adopt Roon into servers or that Roon would implement a bridged Ethernet option in their next Nucleus], but I’m pretty sure that’s a standard board with 2 Intel port controllers bridged in Linux. And as for their claims about reclocking Ethernet, well . . … clocking an Ethernet stream on your streamer that sends asynchronous packets to a DAC with its own [likely the Master] clock is for all practical purposes a waste of effort and money.

And at the end of the day, both the Innuos and the Melco are relatively underpowered. For these prices, they shouldn’t be.

1411

Sorry for asking: So you point out it’s a ripper, a storage and streamer and not a server. It does store music/and meta data(?). But what should be it’s other server functions? Sorry for my ignorance. I invested in PSA PWT-DSD-BHK250 and a lot of cd’s. I must confess I mainly (re-)play a limited number of CD’s like perhaps 50, whereas I probably have a few hundred cd’s. Do i understand correctly that when buying the Octave player - I can acces also a music catalogue other than ripped by myself? Once again, I am a total noob.

1412

I understand that like any streamer it can access internal and external USB drives, network drives, Tidal etc. and play to the connected DAC. If it is also a server, you should be able to play stored or usb attached files on other systems attached to the network. The whole point of that, and of having a server, is not to have to duplicate files on different systems. Last time Paul commented, He said Octave cannot be accessed by other systems.

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1413

OK, thank you. For me it would be nice just to stream radio, replay ripped cd’s and perhaps get a Tidal or other service. I get your comments now I think. I would be happy to rip my most favourite cd’s and be able to search for new music. Too much boxes already in the rack.

1414

Mostly replying in the hope that I can undo any confusion you might cause other people. If you end up adjusting your own understanding of terminology then all the better.

A “network” is still a network if it only has two devices on it. The distinction between Local-Area and Wide-Area Networks is not black and white, but there’s no question that if it’s confined within your listening room, or even your home, it’s not a WAN.

The reason Innuos has an Ethernet port marked “Streamer” on it is that this particular LAN port is intended for use with only a single other device attached, and it’s optimised for low noise etc etc. This is the Ethernet LAN port you should connect your streamer to. The other Ethernet LAN port goes to the network where the rest of your home is connected, most often including your Internet router.

On both LAN ports, Innous will be running Ethernet 802.3 standards. 802.3u for 100Mbps speeds, 802.3ab for gigabit if they chose to go that fast. Inside the Ethernet framing they will be using IPv4 (perhaps also supporting IPv6), with TCP and UDP packets (mostly TCP) supporting higher layer protocols like HTTP, DLNA, SlimProto, RAAT, etc. Obviously the audio-specific protocols will be the bulk of the traffic on the “Streamer” port, with the connection to the rest of the network using a lot of HTTP for Internet-based services, and SMB/CIFS for accessing files on a NAS etc.

For connections over UTP cable with RJ-45 connectors, both 100Mbps 802.3u and gigabit Ethernet 802.3ab require category-5 cables as a minimum. These are unambiguously both LAN interfaces on the Innuos box, even though one is intended for connection only to the audio streaming device.

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1415

Can’t help but observe that whenever there is any discussion about anything regarding the Octave there is an immediate reference to Innuos.
No one seems to be verbalising, it except me, but it would seem that Innuos is the reference standard that people are expecting the Octave to reach, or even exceed.
If that is actually the case, then the answer to lots of the questions people are asking is to be found in the Innuos.
Price? Very close to the Zenith (my guess is ever so slightly cheaper).
Hard disk type & treatment? Same as Zenith.
Hard disk capacities? Same as what Zenith offers.
Software? Better than Innuos.
Future cheaper models? Look at Zen & Zen mini.
And so on and so on.
Not that there is anything wrong with that!
Read plenty of Innuos reviews and seen people’s comments, including here!
Chatted to the Innuos guy at the last HiFi show I went to (last year),
Not only were the comments pretty good and most informative,
But, also, excitement for the product was seeping out of every pore of his body!
Not saying that PS Audio are making an Innuos ‘clone’ because I am sure that they are not.
I guess they are looking to make an Innuos ‘alternative’.
More likely a better than Innuos alternative!!
It might be like the salesman is saying, “Its as good as the Innuos here, here and here,
And it is better than the Innuos here, here and here.”
Just some thoughtful observations.
Anyone agreeing?
Anyone disagreeing?!?!
Bruce

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1416

Do you actually own an Innuos server device? Have you ever used one?

You use lots of clever acronyms, but an Innuos box containing a hard drive connected to a streamer is not an ethernet network. You will not be able to use the Innuos box or communicate with it in any way.

It will not have an IP address which, as far as I am concerned, is what identifies a device as a network device.

The simplest network would be a modem connected to a single server device. That’s what I have. My Innuos is wired directly to my modem via the LAN port. The modem gives the Innuos an IP address and you have a network. It’s the only way to communicate with the Innuos, which has no buttons or other means of control.

Plug the cable from the modem into the “Streamer” port and it will not give the unit an IP address. Believe me, I’ve done it by accident. It therefore cannot be a LAN port.

What the “Streamer” socket does is transmit data to a streamer using ethernet data rules.

In the case of the Kii Three, the RJ45 socket and CAT5 cabling don’t even use a standard ethernet protocol. They warn that damage can be caused by attaching g it to a computer. See p22 of the manual.

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1417

I only mentioned Innuos because it has the benefit of an RJ45 output, like Melco and a few others, with reference to galvanic isolation.

The Innuos Statement is probably a reference server, but it does not have its own streaming software like Octave. You have to use Roon, Squeezebox or UPnP software.

I have a Zen Mk3. It is $2,600 with a 1TB HDD, $3,000 with a 4TB HDD.

The Innuos disk drive treatment is likely very different from Octave. Innuos use a proprietary format that takes a few days to write, hence larger drives are quite a lot more expensive than the cost of the drive itself.

Octave is a fixed 1TB SSD. Innuos is SD or SATA from 1TB to 4TB, you decide.

Innuos is a server so has no streaming software of its own, like Octave Play. The InnOs operating system is perfect for doing what is required, and no more, having been refined over some 10 years, including operating the unit as a Roon Core, which Octave cannot do. It is designed to run at very low power, so uses the least power-hungry processor possible (just below i3 in speed), has no wifi, no control app, no graphics interface and the absolute minimum of connections. The only way to access it is through an ethernet dashboard.

If you want. comparison machine, look at the dCS Bridge or Auralic Aries G2.1, although neither can rip CDs. Innuos retains a ripping drive. Just as easy to do on a laptop.

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1418

Thanks for the various replies but I was widely misunderstood so I’ll attempt to clarify.

I meant Server, not Streamer. But see where this confusion arose.

I meant Ethernet output, not LAN and see I was lazy typing LAN because that was not the function of the port I was referring to. But my point was innuos put effort into a ‘clean’ Ethernet output.

And I didn’t mean to imply USB was the best. Its not. It is however the most commonly used server connection. My point here was that if PS Audio intend marketing this device to the wider world and not just Directstream DAC owners then paying attention to USB output quality and cleaning it up is critical. I2S may be the holy grail for many, but most DACs don’t use it or won’t be compatible with the PSA I2S spec.

Dismissing USB as noisy and focusing on I2S would be a strategic marketing mistake in my opinion.

I also agree with the chap that observed Innuos keep being mentioned implies they are the benchmark. When it comes to servers I think they might well be. The SE and Statement are awesome bits of kit but with equally awesome pricetags. The Zen and Zeniths have a well earned reputation for providing top notch SQ at reasonable prices.

I’d therefore argue that Innuos is the level to aspire to for Octave.

Which is ironic given this project was aimed more to competing with Roon.

Final Innuos comment. They offer what they call ‘Experimental mode’. This uses Roon core as a server but plays to an internal LMS player. This is a bit buggy but totally worth it as it gives the terrific Roon user experience but without the crappy Roon SQ. The Innuos software let’s you flip between them and its night and day. Playing in Experimental mode sounds soooo much better than straight out of Roon. If anyone needs proof that Roon labs dropped the ball when it comes to SQ then have a listen to experimental mode.

This is one aspect where I feel Octave has a real chance to shine compared to Roon. Roon labs care far more about gimmicks than SQ. PS Audio are passionate about SQ.

Fingers crossed!

Cheers,
Alan

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1419

Maybe I should slightly clarify my above comments.
It was not addressed to any particular person’s posts or even just this specific thread.
As I have already commented I never ever thought PS Audio were making an Innuos 'clone".
Therefore the ‘differences’ are irrelevant!
Call the Zenith the ‘inspiration’ if you will.
A PS Audio benchmark, not a benchmark benchmark - as best I can tell I don’t think they plan to make an Innuos Statement equivalent - maybe Paul is the person to comment rather than me guess!
The thing is that Innuos is widely recognised as a great sounding product which offers incredible value for money and, I was suggesting, that this is where the benchmark comes in.
As for me personally I could not care less about an RJ45 output or Roon capability, or streaming, BUT I do care about hard disk size and ripping - in fact they are deal breakers for me.
But this post was not about my personal preferences but all about the way that so many posters love Innuos on the PS Audio forum!!
Bu the way Steven, maybe I am a little bit ‘thick’ but I can’t tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing!!!
Not that it is all that important - I m certainly not going to tally up the ‘agrees’ and the ‘disagrees’!
I felt that I was verbalising an unspoken assumption.
All the best.
Bruce

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1420

I agree with @bigalmc that usb has to be optimised if it is offered at all. Innuos and Auralic have worked hard at this and the Innuos Statement does this so well they packaged it as a separate product, the Innuos Phoenix, to great acclaim.

Auralic don’t do ripping. Innuos were going to drop it in Mk3, but there was little saving so they left it in.

Innuos also has a brilliantly simple way of auto-importing files from a computer. You can see the Innuos on your computer as a network drive and it has a sub-directory called “Auto-Import”. You just drag and drop the files into that directory, go to the Innuos dashboard and press a button. It indexes and does everything else.

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Comparison of servers and streamers is difficult because there are barely two products that do the same thing. The way I did it was decide what I wanted it to do and it was a process of elimination. It ended up a choice between Innuos and Roon Nucleus.

As I want Roon and a decent amount of storage and was paying Octave money, I could get a dCS Bridge and QNAP. I had an old QNAP, but recently bought a QNAP TS473 with 8TB SSD (4 x 2TB). It’s incredibly fast and dead quiet and would be a perfect Roon Core with huge storage, unlike my noisy QNAP TS451 with 16TB SATA.

I fully appreciate PS Audio want to compete with Roon. Auralic took the same approach 5+ years ago, but they gave in eventually. The have a brilliant player and network software, but realised that there are too many customers who want Roon.

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1421

I agree, that the Innuos is the benchmark for The Octave Player, but Roon for Octave Play.

I agree with Steven that the Innuos and Roon beat the Octave by by miles on versatility. I mean choice in price, choice in storage, interfaces that talk to any brand in any price level, super sleek design of enclosure, the list is very long and make it a super interesting device.

Where Octave will have the potential advantage and that is where I certainly agree with Paul Mc Gowan.

  • Integration with Octave Music
    => I don’t need Tidal or Qobuz Subscriptions certainly not both, for that money I can buy so many CD’s SACD’s or high res files that allow me to play a new song 24/7 365 days a year and I get to keep the music too. But Octave Music was announced more than a year ago and has released ONE single album till now. Hardly anything competitive to other labels or music providers. It is otherwise dangerously silent on the Octave Music subject.
  • Software and firmware integration into hardware by the same R&D team, same company and probably same person potentially leads to higher quality
    => with the DS DAC PS Audio seems to have it under control, with the user interfaces on the DS Stream and Power Regenerators and control software in the Stellar Gain Cell DAC not so much. I truly hope PS Audio is capable to overcome those too ambitious design goals that were purely implemented in the past. The fact that beta testing by super fans only seems to be an ongoing practice for more marketing purpose rather than quality control does not really increase the confidence.
  • Although proprietary, the I2S interface in HDMI is genius
    => reliable connector, if the shelf cables and high res suitable, no doubt when good for ultra high resolution video in ultra high contrast, this connection can easily cope with audio In the highest quality.

For the above reasons I consider this a premature stage for Octave. PS Audio’s passion however can take this far, far enough to where it may be useful too many music lovers. I currently have a nice set-up not high end, but good enough, that allows me to monitor the development further.

1422

Oh man. The experience and functionality you’re describing, I don’t argue with. But the problem is you’re using terms that do not mean what you think they mean, and therefore you think I’m saying things I’m not.

There are products that carry I2S over UTP with RJ45 connectors. Those are not Ethernet (which is defined by IEEE standards in the 802.3 family).

I don’t know what the Kii Three is doing exactly, but if it’s Ethernet (802.3 standards, remember) then it would not be damaged by being connected to a computer. That’s why we have standards. If it could be damaged by being connected to a computer then it is not Ethernet. It would be some other kind of proprietary signalling on UTP cable with RJ45 connectors.

If the “Streamer” port on the Innuos device is indeed Ethernet (conforming to 802.3 standards) then it is by definition a Local Area Network. LANs can be used for many things which do not have to include Internet access, management interfaces or even IP addresses. In the distant past we used things like AppleTalk, NetBEUI, IPX etc which are all LAN protocols even though they’re not Internet Protocol.

Given that the “Streamer” port talks to a range of different “streamers” from various manufacturers, it must use some set of common protocols. Are we agreed it’s an Ethernet port? If so, then what layer 3 protocol is it using? IPX? Banyan-Vines? AppleTalk? Or is it using a custom layer 2 protocol that nobody’s ever heard of and all the “streamer” vendors have implemented in secret?

Possible, but not at all likely. There’ll be IP networking between the Innuos and the streamer because that’s just how these things work in the world today. That’s the pre-requisite for DLNA and RAAT and the rest. That doesn’t mean there’s Internet access – IP addresses can be used for purely local communication too, even between just two devices connected by an Ethernet cable.

And it’s smart design from Innuos to not expose their management service on the “Streamer” port even though it’s (almost certainly) using IP. The machine is telling you that the way it wants to work is to be connected to your home network on what calls its “LAN” port so that the specialised low-noise Ethernet interface is reserved for comms with the streamer. You are observing something correctly (the Innuos says it doesn’t have the IP address needed to communicate with the rest of your home network) and leaping from there to the wrong conclusion (that the “streamer” port is not using Ethernet and IP protocols at all, and that it’s not a LAN port).

Please see the difference. I am agreeing with you that to make the device work as intended, you need to plug the Ethernet port labelled “LAN” into the network that you have the rest of your stuff on, and it’ll use that to communicate with the Internet and with apps on your phone or whatever. And it’s also designed to have the music playing system connected to the Ethernet port labelled “streamer”.

But just because that’s the way it functions doesn’t mean you can assert that the technologies used on the ports are fundamentally different. They’re really not. They’re the same technologies just put to different uses.

This whole discussion is about you needing to adjust your understanding of what are literally standardised terms so that you can have a conversation with the rest of us and we can all agree on what the words mean. Should be no big deal really :man_shrugging:

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1423

Octave Music is a record label, not a music provider in the sense of Tidal or Qobuz. Paul never said or intended it to be an alternative to those providers. It will hopefully become a source of excellent sounding recordings, though I think the number of recordings will be more in the double digits, rather than the triple or higher digits of the “major” audiophile labels.

With respect to:

I don’t recall if Paul made any estimates of how many recordings they would output, but there was a long set up period for Gus and PS Audio and then the pandemic hit, so a slow start is understandable. And to reiterate, Octave Music is not a key feature of the Octave Server/Player so a slow start to Octave Music is not slowing down Octave Server/Player.

1424

Steven’s analysis is pretty narrow focused and doesn’t follow the standard definition.

The traditional model of what we would call a server is a device capable of connecting with a local or network music share (could be a NAS, a streaming service like Qobuz, a local hard drive etc.) and serving that digital audio file to a renderer and the system managed by a controller. So, for example, in the case of the PS Audio Bridge (which is just a renderer) one needs a server and a controller. The server can be Roon, Audirvana, etc.

In the case of Octave, two of the three elements of what we think of as a server are contained inside: the server and the renderer. The controller comes from the Octave app you load onto an iPad or Android.

The term server comes about because of its function to “serve” or connect a renderer to a music file at the request of a controller.

The PerfectWave Octave Player will have an Octave server, renderer, media ripper, and music storage device in one chassis. You connect the PW Player to your DAC and control it via an iPad or Android.

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1425

banyan vines - not heard that in a while!

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1426

Paul’s claim to Octave Music was to be both when introduced in his video. As he believed the music providing business was bad for the income of the artists.

The Octave music recording and distribution at the same time would offer a new approach in compensating the artists.

I do not doubt that such endeavor is set up over night, but it was introduced quit a while ago.

1427

When you say both, are you saying Octave music was going to distribute other music labels music as well as record new music and distribute it? I don’t think Paul ever intended Octave music to be a distributor or provider of other music labels content. Why would he? That’s what Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, etc. are for. Besides, doing that has to be a legal nightmare!

1428

Just wanted to add that you can play and rip CDs with the AURALiC Aries now. You need an external CD drive, attached via USB but it is possible now.