We do agree on this. While I find the sound quality of the Bridge the best, I rarely ever use it and for the same reason Ted sites here. The user interface is so much better on USB. It's my go to choice for listening.
I am curious what interface y’all are using on USB that makes that experience sufficiently superior to overcome USB’s disadvantages, especially, gasp, sound quality. My Bridge does occasionally disappear from my Roon audio zones (as it did for a moment this morning), but are you back to JRiver or something else?
Oh, nothing spectacular. iTunes and Bit Perfect are still my go to. Roon is a much better interface for cruising and discovering and getting involved, but it leaves me hanging for just playback of my favorites.
palerider said
I am curious what interface y'all are using on USB that makes that experience sufficiently superior to overcome USB's disadvantages, especially, gasp, sound quality. My Bridge does occasionally disappear from my Roon audio zones (as it did for a moment this morning), but are you back to JRiver or something else?
I use nerdware: foobar2000. I find I can navigate to the album/tracks I want fastest and most reliable with it - and it handles editing .iso metadata into sidecar files so my SACDs are first class citizens, unlike JRiver MC which only handles things like this in a private undocumented/non-portable way... Also with foobar2000 I get a waveform display even for SACDs which makes navigating within a track quite reliable.
As to making USB sound better, I have a few differing things I do depending on my mood. A Corning USB 3.Optical cable works with Windows 10 pretty reliably (I had a lot of trouble with it in Windows 7.) I also have a cheapo USB hub I often use right before the DS with it’s own power supply that I plug into a separate dedicated circuit Both can make a difference in sound quality depending on the rest of my setup. A LANRover doesn’t hurt, but my current laptop’s CPU is too recent and the LANRover is flaky at best with it.
Using bridge II with Jriver on NAS and JRemote with several custom views and add. tags on iPad/iOS 10 completely trouble free. Don’t know what could be better. Also track navigation is reliable due to fast NAS with enough RAM and CPU power and proper gigabit network integration.
All network stuff (as well as house electrics) in a separate power circuit than audio and add. galvanic network cable isolation.
Also tried Roon, which was nice in artist background experience etc., but didn’t have enough functionality and compact overview for me yet. Furthermore I was reluctant due to announced sound quality differences to Jriver (but didn’t check this myself at the time).
No reason for USB for me.
Don’t say this is much easier than setting up a turntable, but once it runs it runs and stays like that (reliable SW upgrades presumed
palerider said
I am curious what interface y'all are using on USB that makes that experience sufficiently superior to overcome USB's disadvantages, especially, gasp, sound quality. My Bridge does occasionally disappear from my Roon audio zones (as it did for a moment this morning), but are you back to JRiver or something else?
I use nerdware: foobar2000. I find I can navigate to the album/tracks I want fastest and most reliable with it - and it handles editing .iso metadata into sidecar files so my SACDs are first class citizens, unlike JRiver MC which only handles things like this in a private undocumented/non-portable way… Also with foobar2000 I get a waveform display even for SACDs which makes navigating within a track quite reliable.
As to making USB sound better, I have a few differing things I do depending on my mood. A Corning USB 3.Optical cable works with Windows 10 pretty reliably (I had a lot of trouble with it in Windows 7.) I also have a cheapo USB hub I often use right before the DS with it’s own power supply that I plug into a separate dedicated circuit Both can make a difference in sound quality depending on the rest of my setup. A LANRover doesn’t hurt, but my current laptop’s CPU is too recent and the LANRover is flaky at best with it.
Hi Ted
Do all the digital inputs of the DSD Snr have galvanic isolation built-in?
And the Bridge II too? I’m guessing it’s less of an issue here since ethernet has transformers built-in for galvanic isolation anyway?
And is there anything by design in the DSD Snr to help with isolation from AC mains noise and to help break leakage loops? I’m guessing that’s the transformers job?
Sorry if these questions appear silly. It’s always interesting (for me anyway) to learn about the products I own. It makes explaining to friends fun and makes me sound and look somewhat half-clever !
As you mention the bridge uses standard Ethernet connectors and hence is transformer isolated.
In general the approach on the DS was to have as firm a ground as possible on the shields of the various inputs.
In practice as far as isolation the order is approx:
TOSLink (Duh )
I2S has the best grounding/shielding because of the HDMI connector and the HDMI specs.
AES/EBU, balanced connection to aid in common mode noise rejection. The data lines are isolated, the shield is connected.
S/PDIF, unfortunately the shield is the 2nd connector and in general not connecting shields to ground causes more problems than it solves.
USB, almost impossible to galvanically isolate out side of the box since the VBUS line is used not only for power but also for low rate signaling. But the real problem is that the timing is quite tight which doesn’t leave a lot of room for the delays of transceivers. Inside the DS adding isolation for all of the control and data would have been possible but not cheap.
The AC mains goes thru a power transformer, but UL, etc. put constraints on hooking up the safety ground.
In hindsight we might have been able to do a little better on some of these without increasing the MSRP, but addressing them well enough to claim some form of “complete” isolation would add quite a bit to the cost of goods.
Ted Smith said
As you mention the bridge uses standard Ethernet connectors and hence is transformer isolated.
In general the approach on the DS was to have as firm a ground as possible on the shields of the various inputs.
In practice as far as isolation the order is approx:
TOSLink (Duh )
I2S has the best grounding/shielding because of the HDMI connector and the HDMI specs.
AES/EBU, balanced connection to aid in common mode noise rejection. The data lines are isolated, the shield is connected.
S/PDIF, unfortunately the shield is the 2nd connector and in general not connecting shields to ground causes more problems than it solves.
USB, almost impossible to galvanically isolate out side of the box since the VBUS line is used not only for power but also for low rate signaling. But the real problem is that the timing is quite tight which doesn’t leave a lot of room for the delays of transceivers. Inside the DS adding isolation for all of the control and data would have been possible but not cheap.
The AC mains goes thru a power transformer, but UL, etc. put constraints on hooking up the safety ground.
In hindsight we might have been able to do a little better on some of these without increasing the MSRP, but addressing them well enough to claim some form of “complete” isolation would add quite a bit to the cost of goods.
Thanks Ted. Very clear.
Would you put the Bridge II’s ethernet transformer isolation on par with TOSLINK? In terms of the extent of galvanic isolation and extent of noise blocking, for the two?
I’ve read a lot of your posts on Computer Audiophile and I do understand it’s impossible to get 100% complete isolation of noise.
Or would you still put TOSLINK above ethernet, in terms of the DSD Snr design specifically.
You might have me mixed up with ted_b at the Computer Audiophile. I am not he.
As far as galvanic isolation is concerned TOSLink is a clear winner - transformers, etc. all have imperfections like parasitic capacitance that don’t isolate high frequencies nearly as well as they do lower frequencies.
TOSLink has it’s own problems: it’s highest speced data rate is only 96k. You might get 176.4k or 192k with good cables and good transceivers, but there’s no guarantee. Also because the bandwidth is so low the edges are slow which leads to more jitter even if everything else were perfect. Still jitter isn’t a problem for the DS so if you don’t care about speeds greater than 96k (or you are lucky and can get the higher speeds that you need) TOSLink can be a great input. One thing people often forget to do when comparing TOSLink to other inputs is to disconnect those other inputs when listening to TOSLink. If the inputs are connected they still form groundloops which introduce their own noise even if they aren’t being used.
Thanks Ted. I think you made a brief appearance in the comments section of the DSD Snr review on the Computer Audiophile forum and saw some of your comments there. Some people back then had confused you with the other ted I notice.
You and Paul must be getting tired of the same questions coming up. I did try to search and browse the forums but some of the things things are addressed very deep in the forum and my searching skills could do with improving.
Thanks again for the insight and patience. GREATLY appreciated.
Right, but I think "Signature Series" is just a primo moniker that Sonore applies to certain products that have "added juice." The Signature is not a product, I don't think. So, there is a Rendu Signature Series, a Power Supply Signature Series, etc. The Rendu and Rendu Signature have an I2S output [at least, I think they both do], but are not Roon endpoints. The microRendu is a Roon endpoint [among other capabilities], but has no I2S output. And I don't think there is, as yet, a microRendu Signature.
Some clarifications: The Rendu was made with SPDIF BNC, i2s/SPDIF BNC, and analog. The Signature Series Rendu is always i2s/SPDIF BNC. The Rendu and Signature Series Rendu are primarily UPNP endpoints. However, Roon they cab both be used with Roon via a new application we have recently developed: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f26-sonore-sponsored/sonicorbiter-sonoreupnp-bridge-beta-30468/
Frode said
I don't think that the Uptone LPS-1 (which I own by the way, together with the üR) will help a lot because the üRendu USB don't 'power' the DS over USB, except for signalling that a source is connected. So in this respect the +5V VBUS via USB is required.
Even if your DAC does not use the +5 VBUS power the LPS-2 is still powering a very important circuit in the microRendu that does matter.
Paul McGowan said
Congrats on the new DAC. I'll bet you'll enjoy it.
Anything you can do to help USB is a good thing, though all the tweaks and jitter reducers in the world can’t help the fact that it takes far more processing and challenges to get USB into a usable form - where I2S is where you want it in the first place. The folks that make the microRendu support our I2S format as well and for the same reasons.
Do you mean server side, renderer side or both overall?
Frode said
I don't think that the Uptone LPS-1 (which I own by the way, together with the üR) will help a lot because the üRendu USB don't 'power' the DS over USB, except for signalling that a source is connected. So in this respect the +5V VBUS via USB is required.
Even if your DAC does not use the +5 VBUS power the LPS-2 is still powering a very important circuit in the microRendu that does matter.
Yes, I am not questioning this. My comment was solely related to the VBUS issue. I understand from Ted that the amount of current drawn on the +5V line doesn't necessarily relate to the level of propagating noise in the conductor or circuit itself inside the DS. So, signalling vs powering a DAC apparently makes no difference (at least not in principle if my understanding is correct).
Yes, I am not questioning this. My comment was solely related to the VBUS issue. I understand from Ted that the amount of current drawn on the +5V line doesn't necessarily relate to the level of propagating noise in the conductor or circuit itself inside the DS. So, signalling vs powering a DAC apparently makes no difference (at least not in principle if my understanding is correct).
I don't think you can say that as a rule of thumb.
Yes, I am not questioning this. My comment was solely related to the VBUS issue. I understand from Ted that the amount of current drawn on the +5V line doesn't necessarily relate to the level of propagating noise in the conductor or circuit itself inside the DS. So, signalling vs powering a DAC apparently makes no difference (at least not in principle if my understanding is correct).
I don't think you can say that as a rule of thumb.
The forum software has a number of quirks. When posting anything which takes effort to compose, I copy the text to memory in case the post is lost or corrupted before it is saved and posted.
What I was saying was that one design consideration could be to install a solid state relay (surface mount on PCB) engaged by the source VBUS +5V and run an internal DS signalling via the said relay dry contact. This should be quite resilient towards any noise contamination propagated over the VBUS line.
If you mean solid state relay in the normal way (no-liquids or gasses involved) that’s what’s there If you mean surface mount mechanical relay then the needed USB signaling would be broken. High frequency crap (i.e. the 1/2 Gig and up on USB 2.0) is both radiated and conducted by the parasitic capacitances of many components and their mounting.
Don’t get me wrong, it is possible to do better, but most of the obvious ways have a price.
Frode said
What I was saying was that one design consideration could be to install a solid state relay (surface mount on PCB) engaged by the source VBUS +5V and run an internal DS signalling via the said relay dry contact. This should be quite resilient towards any noise contamination propagated over the VBUS line.
That is fine and dandy, but what about the other the two cables (D+ and D-) that connect the computer directly to the DAC?
Both can make a difference in sound quality depending on the rest of my setup. A LANRover doesn’t hurt, but my current laptop’s CPU is too recent and the LANRover is flaky at best with it.
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