The resale value of the DS will take a further hit with the release of DS Junior


#1
Good looking piece of kit Paul,I like the aesthetics. 41_gif
Not to be cynical, but me thinks the resale value of the DS will even take a further hit now...with the new DS Junior release. crying_gif

#2
mark-d said
Good looking piece of kit Paul,I like the aesthetics. 41_gif
Not to be cynical, but me thinks the resale value of the DS will even take a further hit now...with the new DS Junior release. crying_gif
I don't see why you think Jr. would lower the resale value of Senior. Senior's still the king of DACs. Junior takes nothing away from "pop" whatsoever. DS is still the go to DAC when ultimate fidelity is the goal. Jr.'s a great DAC, but it isn't DS.

#3

Paul.The reason I think the DS will take a value resale hit is since the DS is already heavily discounted from ‘new’ in a lot of store fronts on line, and they already resale used at a lower than expected/wanted prices for most of us [ think Audiogon] the addition of the JR DS, will in my opinion, take away sales from the DS Senior,hence, dropping the resale value on the DS Senior.

Most people will not want to pay more for a product, if in their ‘minds’, that product is only ‘slightly’ better than the less expensive one. Also,I have no doubt that the JR will be heavily discounted also in online store fronts,making the DS that much more discounted for resale values… new or used.

As long as PS Audio continues to allow their vendors to sale product at a much lower price points than MSRP, I do not see how the trend will not continue for lower than wanted resale value for any DS dac… Junior or Senior.

Paul.don’t get me wrong,I love my DS,but I dont like my resale value not holding up like other high end audio company products… In my opinion… PS Audio is just as good as them…hands down. If I did not believe that… I would have never invested in my PWT and DS combo.


#4
mark-d said . . . As long as PS Audio continues to allow their vendors to sale product at a much lower price points than MSRP . . . I dont like my resale value not holding up like other high end audio company products. . .
If you buy the product at a "much lower price," the resale value holds very well. One cannot compare list price to used FMV if the product is available discounted.

In other words, take advantage of the available discounts when buying new and the resale value will be of little concern.

As an aside, I buy a product because I want it. I have never bought a toy (audio, car, motorcycle, etc.) planning to sell it and worrying about resale value as part of the purchase decision. I plan to keep it.


#5
Elk said...

“If you buy the product at a “much lower price,” the resale value holds very well. One cannot compare list price to used FMV if the product is available discounted.”

I agree with that. Usually though,a much lower price is usually... a used item. I say,price the item from the get-go accordingly,at least when it's just coming to market. Nothing worse then buying something and you then come to find out you could have had the same item at a huge discount. Makes one think I may have paid to much for the product and it was way over priced to begin with.
"In other words, take advantage of the available discounts when buying new and the resale value will be of little concern."
Not all buyers on the planet can get discounts,especially if buying a just released product from brick and mortar establishments.
"As an aside, I buy a product because I want it. I have never bought a toy (audio, car, motorcycle, etc.) planning to sell it and worrying about resale value as part of the purchase decision. I plan to keep it".
I never buy a toy planning on keeping it forever. Sooner or later it will be sold. There is always something that makes my initial purchase seem lacking or a sound quality increase that I feel would be of great benefit. When the novelty wears off,it will be sold. Hopefully not for a huge loss though.But hey,that's just me.

[formatting edited to increase readability. Elk]


#6

If one wants to be an early adopter, and plans to sell the item at some point, you must accept that you will take the greatest potential loss on resale. If this is of concern, wait for prices to stabilize, buy used, or simply accept taking the hit. Blaming a manufacturer for the realities of the market place is misplaced.

I bought my Z06 at MSRP. They were high-demand, low supply cars at the time. When I sell the car I will take a greater loss than the guy that waited nine months and bought the same car toward the end of the model year. Obviously.

Life is tough when you live in the first world and are in a position to buy toys. Spend your toy budget wisely.


#7

Elk,I am not blaming anyone… Just commenting on an open dissusions forum.


#8
mark-d said Elk,I am not blaming anyone... Just commenting on an open dissusions forum.
Interesting. Your post, especially phrases such as "As long as PS Audio continues to allow their vendors to sale product at a much lower price points than MSRP," reads as if you are asserting PS Audio is responsible and should behave differently. Perhaps I have misinterpreted everything you wrote.

As an additional note, there are limits on what PS Audio can do in fixing pricing.


#9
Elk said
mark-d said Elk,I am not blaming anyone... Just commenting on an open dissusions forum.
Interesting. Your post, especially phrases such as "As long as PS Audio continues to allow their vendors to sale product at a much lower price points than MSRP," reads as if you are asserting PS Audio is responsible and should behave differently. Perhaps I have misinterpreted everything you wrote.

As an additional note, there are limits on what PS Audio can do in fixing pricing.

Yes,PS Audio is responsible for their pricing,I never said they have to behave differently. You insinuated that I did. Also,it's nice to know you have insight on PS Audio's price fixing schemes,how could they get along without you Elk...happy-048_gif

#10

Mark-d,

i find your views very strange. if you wish to take only a small loss when selling, then it is your own responsibility to find the best bargain when buying new or used, then maintaining the item in good condition, then finding the right buyer who is willing to pay a good price for your item.

i once bought a used cable then sold it after some time for a higher price than i initially paid. It has to do with luck and probably some resourcefulness, nothing to do with the manufacturer of the cable.

blaming the release of ds junior for lowering the resale prices of ds dac across the board is just plain ridiculous imo … There is no such ‘across the board’ price to begin with, the msrp is just a guideline. It is up to you to bargain with your dealer or used item seller to get the best price.


#11
mark-d said Yes,PS Audio is responsible for their pricing,I never said they have to behave differently. You insinuated that I did. Also,it's nice to know you have insight on PS Audio's price fixing schemes,how could they get along without you Elk...happy-048_gif
Why so snide? As you noted, you are "commenting on an open dissusions (sic) forum" and others have responded, disagreeing with your views. It is the nature of public discourse. (And to be accurate, you insinuated PS Audio has harmed you; if anything, I inferred your intent.)

As I noted, there are limitations as to what PS Audio can do to set prices. But I am certain there are no “price fixing schemes” to which you refer. In the States, a manufacturer cannot mandate that distributors and retailers sell at MSRP or only at a certain discount. This is per se illegal in several states and is additionally problematic under Federal law (I will not bore everyone with the specifics).

As a result, popular products with wide distribution are often competitively discounted; each retailer wants your business. Discounts typically increase as a product approaches its natural market penetration. The price for used examples similarly drops. New products often lead to further discounts of existing products. These aspects of the marketplace are hardly a mystery.

In summary, you pay to play.

And let’s go back to discussing the wonderfully appealing new DirstSteam Junior. I hate the name, but the product is highly appealing and should delight many.


#12

I guess I am different. I buy and keep for my enjoyment. I don’t look at it as a commodity. Nor do I feel as if I am renting to unload later. Re the junior. I have zero interest as a DS owner. I also think a 4k dac is by no means for the middle class either! So to me - if you can afford the junior - you can afford the DS. They are both expensive kit.

If you consider discounts on product - 40% off a DS and 40% off a junior makes the DS 1k more if you exclude bridge. 1k for sota? Isn’t that a no brainwr ?

This just feels like the pwd mkii replacement keeping the architecture consistent across platforms.


#13

I agree with you Elk completely, except this particular thread isn’t about the DirectStream Junior, it is about the effect it has on pricing of the DS. I believe the former is http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/directstream-junior/.

Like so many have mentioned, audio, like auto, is a finicky business. Save the rare collectible, such as the recently auctioned 1957 Ferrari that recently broke a record for Ferrari by fetching 32 million euros, they both are depreciating assets. The new Shelby is another prime example. I recently read where a new GT350R brought 100k over MSRP, which was 65k. Can you imagine paying a 100k premium for a Ford? Sure, it is probably the best Ford that didn’t wear the GT40 moniker, but it’s still a Ford. There won’t be many built and the first few will certainly be collectors editions, thus the premium. There are many cars that will best it, including Elk’s glorious Z06, many are cheaper than the MSRP but if you have to have a Shelby, well as has been said, you pay to play. Drive the car on the streets and put 10k miles on it and it will depreciate too. Maybe not like a Focus, but it will depreciate. There really aren’t many collector pieces in audio, the Sennheiser Orpheus is one I can think of.

PS Audio gear is not Ferrari. A Z06 is not a 488. It may perform like one, but it isn’t the same. You can’t even order a new Ferrari if you haven’t previously owned one. If dealers are selling PSA gear new at a 40% or more discount then their cost is less than that because they are making some profit. If PS Audio sells them to a dealer for 50% MSRP, PS Audio is still making a profit so their R&D and production costs are less than that, so in essence the 6k DS is a sum total of what, 2k in total cost? Maybe less, maybe more. We want them to make a profit so they will continue to make great sounding gear and provide the magnificent customer service that they do.

This is the way of capitalism and why direct sales companies often charge much less than distributed dealer network varieties. The Schiit Yggrdasil would probably MSRP near the DS if they had a distributor/dealer network. Instead the cost savings are passed down to the consumer, if they are willing to buy before you listen (or to take on the hassle of home audition and return via post). I am glad to pocket the savings thank you. Oh, and the only way to pay less for a Yggy is to buy used.

I am also glad I can purchase a DS, DS Junior, PWT, Dectet, etc. at significant discounts. I could not afford to buy a DS at 6k, particularly after investing over 4k in PWD, Mk. II upgrade, Bridge, Bridge II. But, thankfully, I can pick it up for a considerable discount and enjoy SOTA audio with my limited budget. In fact I had planned to buy an upgrade board for my PWD initially, but decided it was worth a little bit more to have a new unit and repurpose my PWD or sell it to offset a bit of the cost. PS Audio does indeed offer value for their customers in that they don’t charge for the firmware updgrades. You can spend a lot of money for the upgraded parts that other companies charge for their given signature or reference edition that doesn’t improve the sound quality as much as the firmware upgrade in a PS Audio product that they give you for free.

Regarding Junior, if the bridge wasn’t integrated into it I agree that it wouldn’t be much of savings and that in all likelihood anyone with the means to purchase a 4k DAC can probably afford a 6.9k DAC, but in the midst of a complete system the 41% savings would be appreciated. In reality we’re looking at a 2.4k DAC vs 3.6k in real world acquisition cost though. That really does make a difference because stretching a budget from 2.4 to 3.6 could be an issue. If the bridge isn’t needed, then the gap narrows by another $400. Used should save you another 20-30% if you are patient.

The only question that remains in my mind is how the Junior compares sonically with all the other DACs currently available, including Daddy. Does DS sound 1k better to my ears? Does it sound worse than the Yggy or any other DACs with similar acquisition costs. That’s where I am right now in my purchasing phase. I’ve waited for the prices to come down and have sourced my DS. I was literally on the brink of pulling the trigger when Junior was announced. Now I have to decide if I want to go ahead with DS or wait for Junior to be available and maybe even read some reviews.

In my opinion the bottom line is that Junior will only effect DS value (new or resale) negatively if it offers nearly the same or better sonic performance. I don’t honestly know how you can quantify sonic performance (i.e. 85%). I find it easier to qualify sonic differences. PSA put the figure out there, it’s up to the consumer to decide now.


#14
speeddeacon said I I don't honestly know how you can quantify sonic performance (i.e. 85%). I find it easier to qualify sonic differences. PSA put the figure out there, it's up to the consumer to decide now.
85% is probably a marketing trade off. Maintain interest for the Junior while at the same time keep some distance to the daddy to not cannibalize it 65_gif

#15
My initial comment about the resale value of the DS because of the DS Junior being introduced was just that,a comment on my belief system... No one has to agree with me,that is perfectly fine. I never intended for this to be a separate thread but Elk seems to think it should be,so by all means,go ahead and make known your thoughts. As the saying goes,"the devil is in the details". Time will tell if my thoughts on the subject become reality or not....I hope I am wrong about the DS resale value going down...they are low enough as it is..... Lets just say I would like to have my cake... and eat it too.
On a side note,I would love to see an all out assault for a future DS dac...if that could/ would at all be possible. If Paul and company can improve the DS by a "15% increase" in sound quality,I will most certainly vote with my wallet. Here's hoping... drinking-39_gif

#16
speeddeacon said I agree with you Elk completely, except this particular thread isn't about the DirectStream Junior, it is about the effect it has on pricing of the DS. I believe the former is http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/directstream-junior/.
Thanks for providing the link. My post encouraging discussion of Junior was originally in the Junior thread. I should have edited it out for this thread.
The only question that remains in my mind is how the Junior compares sonically with all the other DACs currently available, including Daddy. Does DS sound 1k better to my ears? Does it sound worse than the Yggy or any other DACs with similar acquisition costs. That's where I am right now in my purchasing phase.
A very tough decision, made worse by the inherent diminishing returns of audio.
Frode said

85% is probably a marketing trade off. Maintain interest for the Junior while at the same time keep some distance to the daddy to not cannibalize it 65_gif


Yes, and at best a guesstimate. I do not know how one can objectively quantify what is entirely subjective, but it helps in trying to compare the products.
mark-d said
I never intended for this to be a separate thread but Elk seems to think it should be . . .
I separated it out from the main thread as it distracted from the discussion of Junior itself, and this discussion can easily stand on its own.