i actually enjoy reading deniz’s posts as I do reading minimalist’s posts (i.e # 58 in this thread where he does even more extensive mods to the psu). we are discussing possible changes and enhancements to the dsd and both posters have tweaked the analog power supply with good results.
Makfi - yeah, get it. But Elk - start another thread for these folks.
The problem these days is, you have to take to heart even more than ever the old saw, “Don’t believe everything you read”.
badbeef saidWith apologies to deniz - I just have to chime in here that this has a bit of a weird feel - brand new poster, sorta hijacks the Ultimate DS thread, suggesting new mods every other day to the DS
I cannot do anything for the weird feel, but I apologize sir for hijacking the thread, i will open a new thread and post my further findings there…
My previous post actually was the first suggesting a mod. In my first post i experimented with a battery, did not offer any mod… It attempts to mitigate the very same deficiency revealed with the battery experiment.
DIY conscious people will not kill themselves nor their DS… We aren’t kids are we? I assume everybody here is realistic about their own abilities 
Reading the forum i feel like i can tweak safely with voodoo fuses and i can stick mysterious emi suppressor gizmos on the chips, but if i dare challenge the design of DS i may get electrocuted or kill my DS… Funny indeed…
Dear Ted, i know you have your DS’ cover off, in a spare time of yours could you please kindly give this a shot?
Dear badbeef, you asked my equipment, here they are:
Vincent 236mkii with Psvane 12AX7TII tubes, Usher Audio Mini Dancer 2, PS Audio DS, Acousence GISO LAN Isolator,
Please find the humble photo of my poor audiophile’s equipment sir. Also note the golden ears which cannot be fooled…
Do i qualify for the forum? Would you like to read my CV?
Other threads have gone way more OT than this one.
I like the posts, I wish that some posts had not been deleted by the one of the posters.
I find the CAP tweak interesting, only ears can tell how it sounds.
I like the feline tweak in the picture, I have seen this before, highly controversial!
Deniz, again - apologies, and feel free to take a pill. I will also.
Most of us are not kids, but Paul, et al, are actively recruiting them.
deniz_salman saidDear Ted, i know you have your DS’ cover off, in a spare time of yours could you please kindly give this a shot?
I know many ways to make the DS sound better - I’d prefer to spend my time on making it sound better for everyone.
There are plenty of people that claim they can make the DS sound better - but that’s true of any product. The first prototype I built for PS Audio was powered from batteries. Tho I suspect that a big cap can help many people I also know it’s a waste for some others. Is it the most cost effective tweak? - nope. Would I build the DS identically if I were to do it again? Nope, I’ve gained some experience in design, some experience with the DS and most importantly some experience with some of the typical quirks of customers systems. (I tried the original DS on about a dozen local systems, modest, terribly expensive, horn/SET, solid state amps, tube amps, (no amps) but that’s nothing compared to the kinds of systems out there.)
I’d be much interested in your conclusions from this for another DS design
„… and most importantly some experience with some of the typical quirks of customers systems.“
The biggest surprise for me was how many systems have ground loop issues. I guess I’m spoiled by my system. I have dedicated circuits, solid earth grounding, balanced cables, etc. My system is ground loop proof enough that it’s happy with a satellite receiver that’s connected to the power ground, telephone ground and satellite ground.
Tho the DS is fairly agnostic about differences between multiple inputs from a single source (i.e. good input jitter rejection), less controlled experiments seem to show differences between the various inputs. Adding solid grounding (or careful isolation) usually makes these differences go away.
Despite the multitude of isolators out there doing a good job isn’t cheap (e.g. most chips designed for isolation aren’t designed for noise reduction.) Balancing isolation of inputs with other features that can affect sound quality will be hard - some won’t need the isolation at all, some would sound worse with complete isolation (they may be counting on the shielding of some of their cables being grounded…)
I believe that most designers aren’t trying to be good citizens in that they aren’t thinking about the noise they send back out their inputs or power cords. Our audio systems are already subject to too much noise.
I have a design for a linear power supply that has a high power factor - besides making the power companies a little happier, that will both keep the device from drawing power when other units are adding noise to the power lines and it will keep the device from adding noise to the power lines at the times where other devices are most sensitive… Once again keeping the cost down and balancing things like this against other ways to improve the sound will take some work.
I also have some other ideas on the drawing board…
badbeef saidDeniz, again - apologies, and feel free to take a pill. I will also.
No problem badbeef, i can handle truth
That’s interesting and sounds as if you have a very special system regarding this aspect. Would be interesting if there’s a simple way except power connector polarity and balanced interconnects to try out a special ground loop optimization, especially if single ended connections are used.
badbeef said You also have to wonder at every tiny tweak being reviewed by a "focus group of one" who determines that each one takes it to a new level, etc.Sleeping at a Holiday Inn Express can work wonders.
But Elk - start another thread for these folks.I think user mods are relevant to this thread. Plus, this cat herd likes wandering around, even aimlessly.
I will try this mod to see if it significantly improves / changes the DS music making abilities… The DS was ( still is ! ) such a game changer for me because it is just so effortlessly musical and it is pitched at a relatively low price ( DS cost less than half the price of my previous dac and it’s significantly better )… I have two DS boxes so it will be very easy A/B switching between them… DS 1. had been a pain in the butt for awhile - when I loaded up a new ( any ) O/S the DS was sonically all over the place for weeks - after another frustrating experience with Huron I stripped out all the internals on my first bought DS and installed a new kit… Since installing the kit to DS1. it has worked perfectly… Huron loaded up fuss free, but the rebuilt DS sounded dire and took many hours of 24/7, to reach the performance level of my DS 2 … So, I do know how the DS responds to changes, etc… I don’t hear anything that’s wrong, or any aspect that bugs me with the DS, or makes we want to look elsewhere … The DS is still the best product I’ve bought from P S Audio ( hence why I bought a second DS )…
I do know that the power supply is vital and that big gains can be achieved… I remember back in the mists of time when I didn’t have much money I’d build kit amplifiers: by placing small value polypropylene capacitors in parallel with large value caps it kept the impedance characteristics closer to the ideal at high frequencies… Removing the polypropylene bypass caps and the treble was slightly rolled-off and less clear than the mids and bass…!
Elk saidThe secret to cat herding has been revealed (at least for audiophile cats) ... a nice warm tube amp! Witness Deniz’s photo. Now it might have to be a pretty big amp to accomodate us all, but cats like to pile on to something warm.Plus, this cat herd likes wandering around, even aimlessly.
Cat herding, that must be what the boomerang on the table is for!
Four-footed hirsute room treatments do indeed find tube amps appealing.
So I just picked up a demo unit Sonore Signature Series Rendu from Sonore themselves. This seems to be one of the best (if not THE best) sounding I²S capable sources out there. I was chatting with the guy over at Sonore who sold me the SSR and during our conversation he mentioned to me that they upgrade Direcstream DACs for $1500. This is exactly what he said:
"By the way, we upgrade the Directstream DAC if interested for $1500. [We] replace the regulators and the input fuse. [This] converts the DAC to a $15K performer. "
I’m not at all savvy enough in electrical engineering to know if such an upgrade is worth it or if it would make a meaningful enough difference to justify the price of this upgrade. My Directstream’s fuse was upgraded by the previous owner with a Synergistic Research Black Quantum fuse. So I guess I have two questions that maybe someone can answer:
1.) Do people think upgrading the regulators would make a meaningful difference (were the stock regulators compromised sonically to cut down on costs?). I don’t know which specific regulators would be put in, but knowing Sonore, they’d be extremely high quality.
2.) I suppose only Ted Smith would know how to answer this, but is stock regulator performance considered when making new code for the upgrades in firmware/OS. Or put differently, would these new regulators make it so the sound enhancements Ted is looking to get be affected/made worse (or better?) if the stock regulators aren’t being used?
I didn’t want to start a whole new thread for this question and so asking here seemed to be semi-appropriate given the topic.
Indeed (competently) replacing some components on the power supply card (including the regulators) will make a difference. The DS was designed to a price point and we used the same power supply card that the PWD had. In a DS designed from scratch the power supply isn’t the most cost effective place to spend money, but for an aftermarket upgrade it could well be.
If by “replacing the regulators” they mean also replacing some regulators on the digital card - that’s a little harder - the ones that are their were selected to meet some specific goals that a replacement regulator may not satisfy. But someone who knows what they are doing could do it - but why?, those regulators have little effect on the final sound (tho everything matters in the end.)
The analog card uses discretely implemented regulators and if by “replacing the regulators” they mean replacing anything on the analog card I’d be skeptical - the parts there aren’t cheap and were carefully chosen for the properties needed for the DS.
I know that some of the software updates have been more significant that many hardware upgrades that people have suggested - I believe that, in principle, an appropriate hardware upgrade could make a similar difference (maybe more, maybe less.)
I don’t know any details about anyone’s DS upgrade packages so I’m not endorsing any nor condemning any and I’m not going to spend time commenting on or validating anyone’s potential changes.
Duly noted. I feel that the upgrade from the Sonore SSR feeding the DS will be greater than a potential DS hardware change.
Seegs108 saidCould be wrong here, but with the power supply board being a carryover from the PWD, one of the regulators appears to be unused in the DS.1.) Do people think upgrading the regulators would make a meaningful difference (were the stock regulators compromised sonically to cut down on costs?). I don’t know which specific regulators would be put in, but knowing Sonore, they’d be extremely high quality.
In the past weeks i further elaborated the 12V supply. Tried to get help from an industrial electronics engineer, however we could not see much on the oscilloscope, as the scope+probe was more noisy (± 10mV) than the system under test. I could not find anyone with a spectrum analyzer, and i cannot afford one…
Then i thought of a layman’s experiment; with a 2uF series MKP cap, i connected the DS’ 12V supply to my audio amplifier input, to listen to the audio band noise on the 12V rail through the speakers,
It sounded like a loud white noise with some barely audible ripple components superimposed.
Inserting the aforementioned cap which i previously proposed as a mod reduced the white noise considerably, the bigger the cap better the reduction. I went as far as 6800uF. Its effect on audio quality was quite repeatable. In critical listening, a lead acid battery still performed better though, than the 12V supply bypassed with a big cap.
Played with mains polarity, lifted the ground, connected neutral to ground, removed the Bridge, the noise on the 12V rail did not change,
Here are my conclusions,
- The culprit is the noisy LM317, not ground loops, not customers’ systems quirks etc…
- Succeeding regulation stages in the Analog Board apparently are not that immune to power supply noise
- Reading between the lines of Ted’s comments, the noise is cancelled on the balanced outputs hence not much of an issue, however the unbalanced outputs are plagued with noise,