It is my opinion that you have come to this conclusion in a particularly irrational manner.
Many folks (most here it appears) simply do not share you opinions on the objectives and indicators of good speaker design. The idea that a speaker is not fit because it apparently cannot produce 105 dB peaks at a listening distance of 15 ft. or more using a 100 to 600 wpc amplifier is a perfectly fine opinion to have. It’s just not (apparently) held by many folks dwelling in this thread.
Furthermore, I have not read any “strange defensive excuses.”
Finally, perhaps you would care to share a few examples of worthy speaker contenders (meeting your specifications) offered at or near the price of the FR30.
Maybe that would help me and others truly understand your perspective better.
Please do not claim I do something I do not and of which you have zero knowledge. I know exactly the levels at which I listen (having a studio) and am well aware of the peaks in recordings, including those I master and send off to clients.
You may listen at the levels you cite. I do not and will not.
I similarly do not buy into your “bastion of truth,” finding it non-credible. But you are absolutely free to believe whatever you chose.
Good to have this resolved.
So what new speakers will you be be buying, and with what will you be driving them?
There doesn’t appear to be any way to appease this gentleman. I recommend total surrender.
He is right! He is exactly right about each and every statement he makes!!!
I have three friends on another forum that got on the Avant Garde train about three years ago at the same time with Duo XD’s. All three have moved on. One to MBL and then Kharma, one went back to Harbeth and the third to Fleetwood DeVille’s. One had already done Maggie’s.
As several people have pointed out, the calculator in the original post fails to consider a number of issues that determine how well a particular amplifier would drive a specific speaker with a nominal sensitivity of 87 dB in a particular room. My own loudspeakers are Thiel 2.2s, which have a sensitivity rating of 86 dB and can be driven easily to painfully loud levels by my M700 amps. Given that JA reports a median sensitivity of 85 dB for speakers he sees, both the new Aspen FR30 and my old Thiel speakers are solidly average in terms of sensitivity.
In Googling around on this subject, I came across a peak SPL calculator that provides a bit more context for how much amp power is needed to drive speakers of different sensitivity levels: Peak SPL Calculator. I’m sure this calculator still provides only a simplistic view of the many factors involved, but it should be reassuring to anyone who might worry that the Aspen may not provide realistic SPLs in home use.
Using this calculator for my own listening space in my 3400 cubic foot living room, it appears to require only 150 watts to achieve a 105 dB SPL at my listening position of 10 feet for stereo speakers with 87 dB sensitivity when they are positioned within 4 feet of the front wall. This would be a piece of cake for my M700s.
Now the hard part: how do I come up with the funds to afford the Aspens? I guess I’ll have to start buying lottery tickets!
As I’m sure you are aware Quad ESL2912 (and earlier models) have protection circuits limiting the input voltage to the equivalent of about 100w into 8ohms and the manual says more power is pointless. Quad recommend not using an amplifier with more than 150w into 8 ohms so as not to damage those circuits. With my ESL63 I used the amplifier software to limit the power as recommended.
In Quad demonstations they use the Artera Power amplifier, which costs 25% the price of a pair of M1200 in the UK, half the price ($3,000) in the USA.
Quad have designed amplifiers for their speakers since the 1950s. I’ve used several, they are exceptional value and really the best choice for Quad ESL. They are not the fastest amplifiers with conventional speakers, but with conventional dynamic 86dB speakers I found Quad 909 and QSP got very close to their maximum performance. Only a faster modern Class D (180w into 8 ohms) squeezed a little more out of the speakers. I tried amplifiers with more power, for no extra benefit.
That’s a good point. For chamber music I like to sit as close as possible, even for piano. For ballet we sit 5-10 rows back to get a good close view of the nuances of the dance over the whole stage, and for opera 15-20 rows back because the scale of the sound is often larger. Orchestral/choral varies and can be fine from way back. The only answer is to have half a dozen music systems depending what you want to listen to.
The advantage of active speakers is you don’t have to second-guess the designer as to how much power is required so as not to limit the performance of the speakers. Audiophiles don’t seem to like that, they far prefer to have the option to choose what they consider an appropriate, or inappropriate, amplifier.
There seems to be an obsession with power and the need to replicate the sound pressure of a concert hall. That may be important if your listening room is the size of a concert hall, but mine isn’t. Far from it.
I find the ability to produce fast dynamics, especially at lower volume levels, is far more important. Most people don’t have a dedicated isolated listening room (look at the gallery) and I certainly enjoy a system more if it can produce dynamic sound at sensible listening levels that don’t raise, the family, neighbours or the dead.
Reminds me of my 35+ years of architecture practice. I tried constantly to get clients to understand they could have only two of the three - low cost, high quality, fast service.
If it would have been presented as a question the replies would have been more civil. Making unproven accusations without empirical knowledge is too easy to do on internet forums and should be self policed IMHO.
Vern
These all-triode, push-pull amps are MY absolute favorites of all time, and removing output tubes in pairs works excellently for limiting power (and heat output).
The OP’s point was to recreate the live experience you need all this power. I think there is enough counter information on how speaker/amplifier interaction plays into this to at least partially discount his premise. Along this vein, I should add that there’s a reason Paul & Co. are bringing out the BHK 600.
What I didn’t see discussed, is that you the listener are playing a recording of said performance. Most recordings are a pale representation of a live performance, almost all having compression, either intentionally (through manipulation) or unintentionally (through the recording system) which makes live playback level of the peaks a less than pleasant thing. The 105 dB peaks are usually very short lived and are typically always compressed. Even if the 105 dB peak is compressed to 100 dB, trying to play back at 105 dB will make for a very different presentation. I’ve attended may classical concerts over the past 35 years and have always been amazed at the difference between live and recorded. I don’t have great hearing, but it’s good enough to tell me recordings do not ever present the original performance in all its glory. I can certainly enjoy many recordings, but seeing a live performance is the ultimate.
The upside of a 30 day in home/system trial is you’ll know if your amplifier has enough power for your room & listening habits & if it’s is a good match with the various speaker impedance’s & phase angles across the bandwidth. The down side is that if it’s not & you drive the amp to clipping & damage a tweeter how will PS Audio handle that.
So here is my unpopular opinion… Good. I am glad. I am glad recordings don’t come close to live performance… to which I’ll add most live performance.
What I wish recordings could better capture of live performance is the energy and emotion of it, not the crappy room, with the bad sound guy who can’t mix, and my terrible seat that gets too much of the hand-made horn PA speaker stack. Even as a musician, I didn’t want what I was hearing on stage or even in the middle of the studio with headphones on - a proper mix was always better.
Yes, its usually different with orchestral music - but when I was the recording engineer at music school making live recordings of performances for our local public radio, our Neumanns caught details most people would never hear in our below-average concert hall.
