Bad review of PS P12

Power Components
101

ASR seems to have the supposition that people buy a power plant to ‘cure’ power problems. I think the reality is that genuine power problems aren’t terribly common, and that one may not know if they had a power problem until a powerplant (or similar) was tried in their system.

I would guess that many/most buy a PP not to cure a problem, but simply to see if it increases the sound quality of their hifi system.

I live in an industrial area, and have solar power. I’ve always assumed my power supply might not be optimal, though several passive conditioners I’ve tried have had no positive effect whatsoever, and have made amplifiers worse.

Having used a PP12 for the last few weeks, Its become apparent that my areas power supply is pretty great, compared to reports from other PP users regarding THD etc.

I have 3 phase power available, with 2 of those phases available in the hifi area, and have 230v supply.
Phase 1 is usually 240-243v, with around 1.3% THD in the day, and increasing to 1.9% at night.
Phase 2 is usually 248v, with THD around 1.2-1.4% day or night.

So, apart from a higher than optimal voltage, pretty good from a THD perspective.

I mention all this as preamble to say that despite having a very decent supply, improvements are clearly audible using equipment revered by ASR, such as the Topping A90, and Genelec 8341’s. Specifically, given that ASR carried out measurements using the A90 to show that there were no audible differences, I thought that worth mentioning.

The differences aren’t night/day, and don’t change any fundamental character of the system, however once heard it’s not possible to willingly go back to NOT using a PP.

As an aside, even at deafening volume, the PP12 reports that current draw is less than 100w for the complete system, which given each 8341 has 550w of amplification is lower than expected.

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103

Thank you for responding Paul.

Yes, and I do appreciate the real-time measurements. However, it seems it only provides a cursory view of whats being “cleaned”. Other than THD being lowered, noise remains a problem?

I’d never seen the PPs measured by anyone, not even Stereophile who typically do a thorough job for other Audio hardware typically. Until ASR provided their measured results, it wasn’t obvious just how much AC noise the P12 was “letting through” - although I suspected this years ago based on a specific experience of my P10 letting through noise from a particularly bad mobile phone charger - that surprised and disappointed the hell out of me.

Well, as it turns out Amir measured that in his part2, and found the P12’s output impedance to be “>3 ohm” instead of the “< 0.008 ohms” shown on the P12’s specs page.

Granted output impedance measurements can be trick, so perhaps you can clarify exactly how PS Audio measures/and with what equipment, in order to get that 0.008 Ohms spec?

Presumably I’m missing the point as well.

I assumed the goal of the PPs are to measurably improve the sound quality of whatever is plugged into them. In which case, the measurements from ASR appears to show that the P12 is not achieving that goal, at least as far as Audio Precisions measurements are concerned.

I’d be happy to be educated otherwise.

Perhaps I presumed wrongly that ASR/Amir had made mistakes in what and how he measured the P12. Are you suggesting that those measurements are correct, and that there are no others that PS Audio would like to put out that “vindicates” the P12?

104

Sigh.

Don’t you think if anyone cared about ASR’s review they would have responded by now?

You assume that ASR has credibility and requires a response.

Let it go, no one cares.

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105

Perhaps instead of doing the many many tests to look at things people cannot tell, he should have fed it with bad power and see how it works. Drop the volts by 5 say like when its summer out and the power company has a hard time keeping up. Drop some music with loud passages and see if it can keep up with the amplifier demands. That is what its for.

I am near the substation for my circuit and its pretty short circuit to boot. My power is clean. Did I notice a difference when I hooked up my P10, I thought It did. Double blind A/B, no. not sure anyone can really do that. you have to go by memory. So I played music I am very familiar with. Did I like it, yes. Earth shattering as much as it was when put in the BHK Pre over my Parasound P7. not even close. But it did seem to improve slightly.

The idea of the powerplant is to make sure your system gets consistently better power than what the street provides, while also being able to keep up with the peak demands of power hungry amplifiers. Did ASR test any of that? That as a consumer is what I am interested in. Does it do what it was ADVERTISED to do.

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106

ASR is one of those sites you join the cult or you dont. Is he even a music fan?

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107

Dear “This user’s public profile is hidden” (@andrewc),

Let’s think about this…

Paul is working on the FR’s, DS MKII, TSS, 600’s, AirLens, plus the added complexity of parts shortages and inflation. And you want him to respond now to what’s becoming you trolling him?

I understand that Paul doesn’t need me or anyone else here to speak for him or defend him. But, I feel compelled to say that you need to muster up an ounce of decency and respect and move on.

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108

Just a question because I never read there:

Do ASR really just measure, or also listen with other gear than desktop speakers or similar? If they don’t, it seems like a site putting measurement devices in concerts and then recommend (or not) to go there (or not)…strange.

109

My sample population is far from statistically significant, but of the reviews I have perused in the past, nearly all were more or less measurement only reports with little or no reporting on the subjective experience of listening to the kit in a system with a known or familiar sound for purposes of trying to report on how the kit impacted the system or compared to kit it replaced in a system.

The consistent failure to make such observations, combined with the uncivil, down right hostile, self-righteous and, far too often, technically ignorant commentary in the review threads caused me to scratch the site off of my approved reading list, long ago.

FWIW/YMMV.

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110

Welcome to the forum @mikk.

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111

Thanks. Nice to be a part of a friendly, helpful and constructive audio forum!

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112

From the little I have see of ASR’s reviews, they are essentially measurements only. This is not a new approach. Beginning decades ago there were reviewers who relied nearly exclusively on measurements.

There are many ways to enjoy audio. While most here will not find it appealing, ASR’s approach is one that its adherents appreciate.

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113

The Power Plants are not perfect. They respond to better power cords, vibration isolation devices and RF and EMF absorption materials. As does any other piece of audio gear across the diverse price range. But yes even with the four buck power cord and a terrible power feed. They still make the music sound better. If you say a SMPS doesn’t respond to cleaner power. The rest of the audio system does by just putting a better power cord on the SMPS device. If you can’t hear what a regenerator does. Just plug in a Television to a regenerator and see noise lines on the TV disappear and the colors get richer.

If Amir can read a scope or data file he should be able to see a TV screen unless he feels seeing is just another psychotic event and doesn’t allow an individual to use your ears and not also the gray matter between them. He is after all living proof you can see and hear what you think you want to believe.

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114

There wasn’t anything in Andrewc’s post 102 that was the least bit disrespectful.

Trolling??? My, my. Don’t be so defensive. Those all seemed like legitimate questions, respectfully presented. That’s what forums are for.

Let PSA answer. They can handle it.

Think what you want of ASR. As Elk says, some love it, some couldn’t care less for measurements only. Some measurements are pertinent, some not. Doesn’t mean questions can’t be asked looking for some clarification.

Sometimes PSA will answer.
Sometimes they won’t. (Like when one asked for how often BHK amps need to be calibrated/biased after experiencing major sound improvements when factory rebiased).

But don’t pull the trolling card any time somebody questions something respectfully on the forums.

I’m not defending ASR - I’ve already indicated what I think of it, and I didn’t even read the review (ha, for that reason). Only saying it’s okay to ask legitimate questions, and to re-ask if the question isn’t answered

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115

I have had several Power Plants, including the P12. I now have a P20.
They all produce better sound, most noticeably in the low level details, the things one can hear only by virtue of a lower noise floor. The key words here are “lower noise”. But again, Amir explained that if we hear better sound quality, it’s just our imagination. Mass hypnosis, don’t ya know…

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116

Yes, of course the Power Plant does what it’s advertised to do. It’s a silly argument to think otherwise. That’s one of the reasons on our more expensive models we offer the full touch screen measurement system on the front panel (the P12 performance can be seen online).

I agree with Brian that if ASR wanted to report on what the Power Plant actually does provide it would have been simple to feed it bad power or modulated power, whatever.

But, let’s be honest. ASR has always been about what they consider debunking the idea that differences in circuitry and AC, wires, etc. that they don’t measure in their narrow-gauge world, don’t matter. That’s fine for them and their followers.

Some of us actually listen.

What bristles me when it comes to Power Plants is when someone suggests they don’t do what they are advertised to do, which is in fact absurd. It is one of the reasons we still include a built in measurement system. Years ago, when Power Conditioner people like Richard Gray’s power products, and Monster Cable’s products were telling consumers that they too lowered distortion of the AC sine wave, regulated the voltage, and cleaned up the power for better sound—all of which are not true—was when we decided to provide the means for the average customer to be able to measure for themselves what those products did or did not do.

To this day, the Power Plants do what we say they do and we provide the means for you to measure their performance.

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117

As OP please Paul sorry if all this caused to you a waste of time. I appreciate your products and your integrity.

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118

Your post was definitely not a waste of time. Discussion is good. :+1:

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119

Yes, I agree with Elk. Not a waste of time at all. Thanks for joining in the dscussion.

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120

We can probably think and listen ourselves - all too often we listen to others who then decide our choice of HIFI … I do the same with my shares - I sell out when I have the perception that it does not sound good. Yes I sell out of my PS audio - Remember paper is grateful - PS has skilled marketing people. Our country is at the height of the war - not because of PS audio but because of an impending war in Europe -

121

@kzk thanks for saying that. There are many here who are not native English speakers, some who may have dyslexia, and yet others like myself who might have been surviving on the streets at 7 years old and didn’t have fundamental schooling. Let’s focus on the substance and not on style.

Thanks

Tom

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