Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

Cables
2135

Hm, I was hoping this conversation would go in a different direction. What I like about Iconoclast is that designs are based upon Galen’s deep and scientific cable engineering expertise. With interconnects and speaker cables he created designs that have better audio signal measurements then many others - and explains why. His claims do not go beyond measurements - What the design does to the sound that people hear from their systems, is up to each of us. I like that transparency and positioning.

I was hoping to learn if similar scientific improvements would be possible for power cables. Can Galen find factors that would make a measurable difference? Is there more then just inductance/AWG? If he can find some factors that give rationale for a better design, we could then all try it out and determine for ourselves what we hear.

It’s also possible off course that such factors cannot be found, but I hope Galen has something up his sleeve here :slight_smile:

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2136

The philosophy and engineering behind the cables is impressive, and it shows in the superb sound.

I, too, would enjoy it if Galen direct his expertise into developing power cables.

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2137

I think we all must be misunderstanding Galen.
So far his approach to this subject is not impressive and he seems to be trying to shoot himself in the foot. We must be off base.

2138

I used KISMET Edition Odysey amps, too! Great amps for the money. WAY underrated for the price. Highly approved for audition.

Explain how I’ve offended some by suggesting that a manufacturere can’t go with their “feelings”. The design is very real, and its properties fixed by that design…sound or otherwise. I never ever thought I’d offended you, sorry about that.

Badbeef, I “hear” you on the sound but I can’t “make” that be fixed into a specification so we can follow that attribute in evaluations at the testing level. We’d sure all like to, but we can’t. What we can do is test the design to spcific properties that end up with a “sound”. Boreing as hell, I agree.

Remember the five why’s? Ask why something works five times and at each step try to make a TRUE and factual explanation. It will take maybe three why’s to get stuck. A Genius may get past you to three or four but near nobody can get to five let alone six on up.

I can sell you a hammer that always falls to the ground. I KNOW this is going to b a fair sale as everyone gets the property with the product. But we don’t even know where the rest of the mass of the universe is to fully explain gravity. Gravity is still a hypotheseis connected to all the mass around us, we see the effect and have a few experimental steps that suggest the “theory” of gravity is going in the right direction.

Making stuff is about making sure the properties are going into the right direction for customers. I’m a customer of my products first, not a manufacturer. I want to at least know that the aspects of a design are at least past the first why. Eventually nothing is really known!

I look at this by being AGNOSTIC to the “sound” and specific to the correct reproducable properties that SHOULD improve the sound. Manufacturers end up here one way or another. Does the end product move “knowns” to where we can design them into products and get past a few WHYS as to how it works?

If going with just the data hurts some feelings, I apologize for that. I can’t be a customer. I have to have a far stricter responsibility to provide measureable attribute for you. OK, no I don’t, I can sell hype but I won’t. I have to connect a problem directly to the solution. As a customer we can ignore how the TV works, or why it looks like it does (same consistency issues as sound). But to make one?

I don’t look at specifically how other products work. I instead build my base of knowledge on my own, same as I did with ICONOCLAST analog products. Usually, if something “works” an independent analysis will cover that aspect even if it approches it from a different direction. That’s good. A proof should be solvable from many angles of inspection, that’s how science works. Keep pooking away at stuff from differing directions with more why’s until we can’t get the answer we expect. What changed? What did we learn? Did we make a mistake? All that stuff constantly drives where the first why starts. We test our hypothesis over and over.

If I make a product, there is absolutely no way it will be “any good” to a subset of the hobby. This is fine, too. The ten most adamant supporters to make a power cable will be exactly half after I make it.

How is that? I change the BASS in my system till I like it! Not to what is “right”. Linear products allow a far greater range of adjustments than non linear ones so it is good to START with accurate designs but we all accept that we will tinker around until we accept the non linearities we enjoy. Exactly why we are all hobbyists in audio. Take away the knobs, and we switch the product.

Where the friction starts is not understanding we all are as different as what we enjoy. I want to provide as linear a product as I can such that the bandwidth of your system is wider so you can persue the tweaks that make it “yours”. That linearity requires tested precision.

We want to make very good cords for affordable prices. This is where I see the need. We have plenty of esoteric designs that are $$$ and use every theory and hypothesis concurrently. That’s OK, as the untested and proven ideas are not going to hurt, they may not help. Sometimes a customer is a Gunnie pig at the bleeding end of the why’s. This can be fun, too.

ICONOCLAST is only interested in the proven that does help, and keeps the cost in check. Yes, I know, boreing. But, we have a far wider range of really good cables to chose from with ICONOCLAST. There are no knobs so we change the product.

Best,
Galen Gareis

2139

Cool. Do you already have initial ideas about power cable design you can share? Improving something between the constraints of the Romex in the wall and the capabilities of power supplies?

By the way, even if there is little measurable design magic to be found, it would be nice if iconoclast / blue jeans cable would offer a few grades of power cable in custom lengths and terminations. That’s currently not a product line. Some vendors offer only a few lengths e.g Shunyata Venom seems to have minimum length of 1.75m which is too long for me, so custom termination work would be great. Anyway, all the best with this endeavor.

2140

RonP,

If you don’t design to the measured cable data, and firmly connect that to a measured problem that the device is supposed to improve what exactly should I be designing to so as to not shoot myself in the foot?

This thread is about hard data, and what it may really be doing to help. It isn’t about how we “buy” a product that can soan from your friend owns it to it has the best specs and everywhere in between.

A thread that is firmly in the discussion of the DATA, and not the variables in an emotional purchase simply means we’re in the wrong thread. If we are talking abut BBQ, talking about baking isn’t going to be appropriate. that doesn’t mean a thing good or bad about baking, it is just not the thread for that topic.

I won’t make a move on a cable that isn’t 100% firmly tested and appropriate for the application, and at the proper price point to be a good value for yes, a specific cstomer base. The entire universe of cutomers can’t be my product world view.

Someone will always be pissed off or go elsewhere to the left or the right of that reality. Every product has a world view it is intended for. We have a clash or ALL world views at the same time and certainly, some will have to feel I’m not on thier wavelength. That’s actually good!

To make nice products, you can’t build to suit too wide a customer base as it dilutes what makes the customer world views different to the point of being inappropriate. When we see divides, we can see the differenes in world views and this forces a decison be made…what view is your product being made for?

BAV and ICONOCLAST is value and data driven. If we pay attention to the data, the USEof the prodct willatch the data agnostic user (the data provides the intangible benefits) or the data driven user that also required data in order to justify a trial. The PRICE limits the amount of data that cn be supported in a specific price point.

But the 80/20 rule is still true. We can hit 80% or better the performnce for 20% of the price. That’s the products world view. We can’t afford to build theory today for proof it may work tomorrow designs as this level of tech can be fun, but many can’t afford the tech experiment.

Let’s look at shielding. OK, a proper shield can knock EMI/RFI down 80-90 dB. EMI/RFI coming into, ingress, or out, egress, of the cable. That’s a lot of attenuation. But it is a RATIO so we need to know more. 80-90 dB of a micro-volt or a million volts? If we have a million volts and 1 volt signal, 80-90 dB may not be enough! If we have 120 volts signal and micro volts EMI/RFI it can be meaningless.

Data is also misleading when we realize it is a lot of reduction of terribly small incident ingress signal. FCC limits control what can go OUT of our stuff, so we may have to use a shield for EGRESS if we have a noisy device. Seldom is a power cord shield for ingress.

EMI/RFI can’t go very far at the frequencies it resides with much power. “Strong” is relative to the signal we are moving. The power level in a power cable is tens of orders of magnitude over a speaker cable (not shielded). We can have 120V at 15A in a power cable. a speaker cable is MAYBE 50 volts and MAYBE 20 amps or so. And either is thousands of multipliers larger than the ingress EMI/RFI “noise” on the cable.

The signal is simply HUGE over the noise. The DATA on how the shield works (80-90dB isolation) is one part of the answer. Understanding HOW an attribute may be a benefit, or to what extent, is the other. As long as people know BOTH sides of an issue they can decide if the attribute is worth the cost.

Will we have shields? Maybe, but one thing you will be told is how much it may be a benefit. Those that understand the data can affirm to those that don’t a product is worth an emotional evaluation…like driving a car. At that point you can ignore the data but…knowing that those that DO understand the data support the product in the technical regards. We can’t absorb every product at the data level…we need assistance most of the time. The data will be there for those that understand it, even if they are the few, the necessary few, for the rest of us.

I started on this foot decades ago, and I will remain on this foot.

Best,
Galen Gareis

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2141

Ok Galen. All good. Thanks.

2142

Hi Ron,

The product straw man is way on the left end (beginning) of the development cycle. The far right end (when it is done) is when we can now ignore the data if we chose to and listen to the music. But…the far left end is indeed the data when we freeze the bill of materials and design.

I think people are just working off the wrong end of the thread, we’re on the left end right now.

Best,
Galen Gareis

2143

Ultimately some cable flexibility would be appreciated in future designs.

2144

weedeewop,

The fact that STRANDED is good for power cords helps a lot, as does the dielectrics that need to be used. But, a 10 AWG near three-quarter inch cord isn’t exactly a strand of yarn. No, they won’t be as stiff as the ICONOCLAST speaker cables! The BAV cords are really nice flexibility. Just don’t ask for “light” weight cords…ouch!

I’m beta testing all the BAV cords in my system right now. No problems with flex. We’re still at the beginning of the beta cycle. This means no BOM (bill of materials) has been outsources yet, so don’t think about us for awhile.

Best,
Galen Gareis

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2145

@BobBJC I sent you an email.

2146

Thanks for the update and projection that a new power cord would have
greater flexibility than the IC’s and speaker cables. Had to rebuild my rack
to accommodate your cables but worth it.

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2147

Shunyata Sigma power cables are 6 gauge and are extremely flexible.

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2148

Paul posted an interesting video on power cables a few days ago. A number of forum members seem to like PSA’s power cables. Cable Co. has a great lending library if your interested in auditioning different power cables.

2149

Yes, I owned a PSA AC12 on my P20 and it did a nice job, but auditioned other cables
from the C.C. and settled on the Shunyata Sigma. I have Alphas on the other gear.
Power cables, for me, made improvements on the par with speaker and IC cables.
Greatest sonic jump was for the DAC, regenerator, amps, pre, and player in that order.
YMMV. Listen to a bunch and marry the one that goes the distance.

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2150

I agree that the DAC seems very sensitive to the power cable.

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2151

I have just ordered 10 power cables from a custom PC guy in Canada. 7.5 AWG and supposed to be flexible. Lots of good reviews. 60 day return policy if not satisfied. Great price
He claims they are designed by math and science but does not publicly provide papers. And I don’t ask. But I did ask him to review Paul’s Video on power cables and he replied that he was on the same page
NRGCustomcables.ca

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2152

Great bang for the buck stuff. I have them throughout my system.

2153

Great to hear…ya nothing like service, product, with the caring of HiFi family for a reasonable price point.

2154

Okay I just installed 9 new power cables…i was truly surprised to hear a substantial improvement right away. It was maybe more of an improvement than installing Windom on my DAC Jr… However I am sure firm ware upgrade and PC upgrade both complement each other… Bass got Deeper and wider if you will. Prat more concise and relaxing. Individual instruments more defined in the soundstage…