ha ha, I tried the 8ft pair 1313 A vs a Iconoclast 7ft pair TPC… it was a complete blowout, the things you could hear on the Iconoclast TPC was NOT present on the 1313A!
So say we all. Thank you for the affirmation. There are many “nay sayers.” That does not mean that 1313A is not a fine speaker cable and does not have a place because it does. We all have to make our own calls. Iconoclast is truly in a revelation to those who simply take the test and “listen.”
Try 1313A and ICONOCLAST comparison on JUST the subwoofer. Yes, full range it will be decideldy different but that’s not what I said, I isolated the response to low frequencies only. Use ICONOCLAST on the upper speakers for sure.
Best,
Galen Gareis
I am sorry, i should have made my response about using the ICONOCLAST full range only. as good as the 1313A is above most cables… there is a clear and distinct difference with the ICONOCLAST ! Hats off to you for the design… its awesome! I have a full loom of the ICONOCLAST in my system now . The BAV and the 1313A will be going to my son.
Paddlefoot,
No problem at all. I try to point out where HARDER, not impossible, differences may be reached so you spend you money most efficiently. It may be better to get a new phono cartridge than to use ICONOCLAST on your subs, for instance. This hobby can be expensive so some quick pointers and why I recommend the evaluation(s) is in order once and awhile.
I want you to feel you get a good value in your system and spend where it is best to do so and in the proper order. We love your business, but happy and smart decisions as to where to put your money is important, too. Speakers, phono stages and any DA or AD conversions are the big impactors to get right before you work on cables. Some will report significant changes with cables but, not ALL systems will respond to the speaker cable changes the same as the amp/cable/speaker interface can be so different. That difference makes the changes vary a good bit. Every speaker / amp has different impedance curves and damping factor / feedback circuits. I recommend to get your “conversion” stages looked at first. But yes, some can have the speaker cable make a larger change than the other conversion stages…just fewer.
I started the project with 1313A and 1694A and was surprised at what I heard with the project’s final designs. It was supposed to show how LITTLE the hard to get electrical improvements were so as to allow money to be spent elsewhere in my own system. But, instead it said cables are really important! So here we are with ICONOCLAST.
We stick to what can be measured or calculated but be aware of the numbers, and cable LENGTH. It is easy to decide that the changes are too small to hear, but we certainly do. It is still unclear which change, as they are all interconnected in cable design, are the ones we most hear. My test cables “suggest” it is improved current coherence across frequency but I have no data that can be translated into what it sounds like (or for 1313A or any cable for that matter). I do know what the coherence is doing with AWG changes, though.
We sell the actual measured data as better is better. The end change you hear will vary based on your system’s amp and speaker.
Best,
Galen Gareis
Would the BAV RCA work well as a digital cable?
Good Morning Rob, the BAV XLR is a fine digital cable and was designed for “digital studio” applications but the RCA will work as well.
Not sure what you mean here, Bob. Is it a 110 Ohm AES-EBU spec cable?
Mark, the AES/EBU spec is as Galen references (110 Ohm.) Did I miss something? Granted, AES/EBU connections are normally based on a balanced XLR cable but in some applications RCA must be used due to output connection restrictions. The BAV cable was based on the Iconoclast Gen 1 designs and the Gen 2 Iconoclast designs were meant for optimizing “analog” signals. I encourage Galen to correct me if I have made an error.
"Digital looks at the load IMPEDANCE, not current coherence so much, and it needs 110ish ohms for AES / EBU and 75 ohms for SPDIF. The cable’s impedance is key on the digital side; IEC 60958 type I[edit]
XLR connectors, used for IEC 60958 type I connections.
Type I connections use balanced, 3-conductor, 110-ohm twisted pair cabling with XLR connectors. Type I connections are most often used in professional installations and are considered the standard connector for AES3. The hardware interface is usually implemented using RS-422 line drivers and receivers.
Type I connector ends||Cable end|Device end|
| — | — | — |
|Input|XLR male plug|XLR female jack|
|Output|XLR female plug|XLR male jack|
IEC 60958 type II[edit]
IEC 60958 Type II defines an unbalanced electrical or optical interface for consumer electronics applications. The precursor of the IEC 60958 Type II specification was the Sony/Philips Digital Interface, or S/PDIF. Both were based on the original AES/EBU work. S/PDIF and AES3 are interchangeable at the protocol level, but at the physical level, they specify different electrical signalling levels and impedances, which may be significant in some applications.
Nope - I was just not following your response to the question. Got it now.
Hi all,
Here is how I matched Digital to analog. This isn’t “obvious” but it is what I did and why. This can indeed be confusing.
First, AES/EBU. This is a 110-ohm nominal impedance. It has a pretty WIDE impedance spec tolerance, but we want to be as close as we can be and STILL fit the NEUTRIK standard connector.
The BAV cable was second in DESIGN, but FIRST in my mind as I needed a way to leverage the COST to INCLUDE AES/EBU digital XLR. This means both keeping the cable studio compliant to Neutrik design and size XLR connectors AND, getting close to a AES/EBU impedance.
The Air Core BAV 4x1 ICONOCLAST was designed to do just that. It meets the AES/EBU at 102-ohms in the BAV design and also is exceptional at analog.
OK, that’s the analog / digital balanced cable side. For the coaxial unbalanced we have yet another side for digital and analog.
SPDIF is the most popular digital audio standard and is 75-ohm nominal impedance. Thus, the ICONOCLAST coaxial was designed to closely match that impedance at 67-ohm nominal.
Pros don’t use the SPDIF too often so ONLY the home market was considered. The “high flex” RCA BAV ICONOCLAST is for severe flex requirement HOME use.
Here is the chart of cable and impedances using nominal values. We can have LOWER capacitance and HIGHER Vp by a tad (XLR cable only is 11.5 pF/foot for instance). We test WITH connectors so that’s the differene if you look at the details. The spec for cable is with no connector.
XLR - 4x1 (ICONOCLAST and BAV versions)
11.5pF/foot 87% Vp = 102 ohms (use this for AES/EBU or analog)
XLR - 4x4 (no BAV version)
18.0 pF/foot 85% Vp = 66 ohms (use this for analog only)
RCA 1x1 (BAV and ICONOCLAST versions)
11.5pF/foot 87% Vp = 102 ohms (use this for analog only)
RCA 1x4 (no BAV version)
18.0 pF/foot 85% Vp = 66 ohms (use this for SPDIF or analog)
This is how I tried to MATCH analog and digital, BOTH, and make sure each design had an appropriate cable. It isn’t too easy as there are conflicting requirements. The POE’s need superb durability so the more fragle 30 AWG four wire “conductor” isn’t used in that market.
I did put some thought into all this to try to meet all the analog and digital “camps” with quality cable we can make in larger QTY to keep prices lower and quality up.
Best,
Galen Gareis
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yes and its excellent in that application too. i have it going from my Cambridge Audio CXC transport to my Schiit Audio Gungnir dac.
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Thanks to “Paddlefoot,” an appropriate moniker for a drummer, and loyal Iconoclast customer, we have created the first BAV, high flex cable terminated with Canare (F-15) 1/4" plugs for use with a set of Rowland TD-30 electronic drums. I did run this by Galen for his blessing with enthusiastic results. He does want to consider producing the cord with a cotton over sheath to promote a low specific coefficient of friction for musicians continuously dragging the cable across a wood or perhaps concrete stage in live events. For musicians who mostly limit their performances to their homes and garages, this product is good to go and is priced the same as the BAV, RCA cable. This should be the best sounding 1/4" option on the planet!! Try one at no risk what-so-ever! I do have a new tag line for Iconoclast… “since we are all under lock down it seems!” Stay safe and healthy everyone!!!
“Sooth the Soul During Trying Times, Iconoclast”
Hmmmm. I wonder how one of those would work for a headphone extension cable?
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These will work as high impedance headphone extension as the cable design is very low cap on the BAV “high flex” and capacitance is what limits the driver op-amps (loading of the circuit).
For low impedance phone extension the low inductance is a plus where more current is drawn from the driver circuit.
There is a good reason to try to bring BOTH capacitance and inductance low. The cable is far more versatile with low average values on both reactance specs for audio.
RF is different, where you need a SPECIFIC balance of L and C to match a vector load impedace to manage reflections. Capacitance value is adjusted up or down to meet those requirements.
BAV RCA reactance specs;
12.5 pF/foot
0.015 uH/foot
Best,
Galen Gareis
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i was asking Bob this just yesterday, but as a replacement cables for headphones, like my Sennheiser 650 headphones.
can’t wait for them to get here to try out on my Roland TD-50. my son who plays guitar and bass will try these as well. its going to be awesome!
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Here is a nice MONO SPTPC amp cable build I did. These are 4 feet long and work real well. I used the Cardas banana, but locking are good, too. The Cardas are specific to the entry hole bore diameter. When it is right sized they work very well.The speaker end uses 7 mm Cardas spades for WBT posts.
That’s a prototype BAV 10 AWG power cord you see, too, on the amplifier.
Best,
Galen Gareis
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Those look great! Let’s hear more about those power cords!
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We have the connector choice design sorted and on the way. It takes longer than expected to get proper fitment across three cord sizes. Keeping with BAV prices, these will be high quality at proper pricing. I have selected a pre-existing cord stock that tested at the top of the heap, so let’s not reinvent the wheel for Audio when we already have a “volume” available cord stock. This turned out to be a great find during qualification testing. We will always tell you what we are doing and why.
The BAV power cord, again, is a RF tested dielectric for UTP cord requirements. It has dielectric built-in RF attenuation, but passes through the audio band virtually unrestricted. I use all BAV power cords myself on my P20 with ZIP 60 Hz noise issues.
I can Email the test data to anyone that wants to see what we’ve done and why. Nothing is top secret. You just have to decide if the performance is proper for your use. But what we measure is indeed what the cord is doing swept to frequency. ggareis@iconoclastcable.com
We will have the data available on the web site, and on some things about shielded cables and what to expect. Shields work, but they need a “situation” that requires a shield. Most of us aren’t in that situation.
Don’t forget, shields are RF only as the 60 or 50 Hz magnetic field around a power cord goes right through non metallic (anything a magnet won’t stick to) materials. Flexible shields are about RF attenuation. Most of us think shield guard 60 Hz “hum”. No, they don’t. Here you need to use BALANCED XLR signal leads that cancel any noise except the signal run by power cords.
Note - I run ICONOCLAST RCA DIRECTLY to my subs and placed over my power cords on risers (distance mitigates the magnetic field strength) that are approx. 3" high from the floor and I get ZERO hum in my subs…and subs should let you know if there is a problem. I recommend cable separation if you have hum, and magnetic fields inductively couples with length, so those cable risers can work to mitigate that problem on long parallel runs. This is with UTP power cords, too. I kind of built a worst case test and UTP power cords are still fine. I do TEST this stuff in use everyone. Pictures are available.
A far more complex ICONOCLAST design with shields is designed. Performance verification is $$$ to do. It will be compared to the BAV cord for swept passive RF absorption performance (should be the same) and it will have a 80 (braid only) or 100 (braid and foil) dB RF attenuation shield. Inductance should measure lower as I will use field cancellation geometry inside the cord. Lowering Inductance and adding a shield will RAISE capacitance some but power cords need low inductance most.
Technically, I could use a lower dielectric constant insulation as I have a SHIELD, and this will mitigate the capacitive effects of the shield (lower dielectric constant lessens the capacitive increase based on a set distance from the ground plane). But, we lose the added RF attenuation that the BAV dielectric provides. We will need to evaluate the COST of the more expensive thermoset EPDM dielectric used in the BAV cord based on a volume basis. Volume really impacts the price. HDPE dielectric is more efficient to extrude in small quantities.
Best,
Galen