Yes we do…talk to Bob Howard. I recommended it as an upgrade from the TPC “same as” version. It is available as BULK connectorized and mesh sleeved if desired.
Best,
Galen
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Good Morning Vince. You will find my contact info a few messages back in this thread. Happy to help you with the 1313A.
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Well, my 8’ 10 gauge arrived this afternoon, instead of Monday. No complaints there!
A very handsome cord. And flexible.
I changed my plan and decided to stick it from the wall to my P12 for a bit in place of the AC-12 I use there. Right off the bat sounds really nice. I don’t prefer it to the AC-12 there, and don’t think it will “break in” enough to change my mind there. After a few hours I put it in use feeding my P10 from the wall in my bedroom headphone only system, in place of a MAC (My Audio Cable) “Burly” cable I use there. I’ll let it settle in a few days.
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Hi Galen (@rower30), I’m hoping to further avail myself of your wire wisdom. In an effort to keep the multitude of signal carrying cables in my combined 2-ch/M-ch big rig manageable, they are secured to the baseboards using many adhesive backed clips and wire ties. With the recent addition of dedicated two channel pre-amplification and 4 new immersive audio channels 4 on the ceiling, my baseboards are getting crowded!
What is best practice for spacing between adjacent 20’ runs of analog balanced and shielded interconnects? How about between the same differential analog interconnects and a long 4k HDMI cable?
Following up on my 05/30/20 post and my initial impressions.
“The BAV easily matches the performance of the Perfectwave AC-12 cable I purchased for over $1000.00 years ago. The background seems blacker, which allows for better bass slam, extended treble, clarity and realism.”
The BAV 10 AWG has been feeding my P15 Power Plant 24/7. I have been listening to the BAV for a week now. I could not detect any cable break-in.
I switched back to the AC-12 today, listened for 1/2 hour, and then switched back to the BAV. My impressions have not changed. Compared to the AC12, the BAV’s bass reproduction is more taught and has more slam, instruments and vocals have a more distinct place on the soundstage. There is greater separation and a blacker background, there is more leading edge detail, and you get a greater sense of being there live with the musicians. In comparison the AC-12’s soundstage sounds smeared, white washed.
Both the AC-12 and the BAV cables have a natural tone.
As soon as I finish this post I am going to send Bob and email to order two more BAV cables to feed my Benchmark power amps. To preplace the AC-12s I have been using. I am excited to see if the positive sound improvements improve as I move closer to my source components.
MTB_Vince,
The BALANCED XLR are VERY immune to noise by design, and can make runs of even 100 feet really well. Unless your XLR are really poor quality or your op-amps are not balanced right with good cable, or heaven forbid bad cable and balance…you should have great noise rejection.
RCA aren’t as lucky as they us the should GROUND as a signal return and the DCR of the shield increases with length. This puts a voltage differential from one end to the other that can cause Hum if your ground is already compromised. 35 feet or so should be no issue with a good RCA like the ICONOCLAST. You need super low DCR with RCA cable.
For routing, keep the cables that have AC POWER separate from you signal cables to not inductively couple hum over a longer run. Longer equals more coupling.
Those speaker cable risers? They are actually better for keeping your power cables away from your IC cables to tell you the truth. The distance decreases HUM in longer RCA runs. The XLR are still pretty good at rejecting hum but they aren’t perfectly balanced so still, keep them away from your AC lines. Speaker cables are low impedance and have a BIG signal over most any noise, so few issues there unless something is really wrong.
The HDMI are DC power so that won’t couple to your AC musical signal. The issue with HDM is it is not real good at LONG runs. We do make a bonded pair heavy duty version that really helps LONGER runs if you have issues. This is a better impedance control (better RL value) and lower DCR conductors. - The Series-1 is quite thick and stiff, which is a drawback in terms of installation convenience, but is certified, at standard and high speed, to the longest distances of any conventional passive HDMI cable we know of–45 feet for Category 1 (“Standard” speed), 25 feet for Category 2 (“High speed”. In actual usage, it ordinarily will work at distances far exceeding these–we have run 1080p video through a 125 foot Series-1 HDMI cable without any information loss, but results will vary depending on the capabilities of the sending and receiving circuits of the devices in use.
So there you have it. RCA are the most problematic with HDMI a close second. XLR should be no issue with good balance cable. AC cables and RCA are not good bedpartners…keep those away from each other maybe 4 inches or so.
Best,
Galen
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Thanks Galen (@rower30) ! So if I’ve understood you correctly, no problem with adjacent analog differential LCR and subwoofer interconnect channels being bundled together quite intimately then?
With the exception of a couple of 1m runs from turntable to phono-stage and then onward to the line-stage preamp, my system uses properly driven and terminated balanced connections throughout. My power cables (lots of those too with 5 active loudspeakers and 4 active subs!) are simply run directly across the floor from outlet to component with lots of space between them and signal cables and 90 degree crossings where necessary.
Yes. The AC12 cable back in the day was a good one,
but many have gotten better for less coin. The biggest difference I also hear (or don’t, pun intended) in better cables is the noise reduction that creates the blacker background. Whether by passive designs or active filters, more of the music is getting through.
Hi Galen,
It’s been a while - greetings from HK! Trust that you and your family are all well and safe.
I wonder whether you could share your experience and knowledge regarding AC power cables as it pertains to BALANCED AC power transmission, specifically, with toroidal Balanced Isolation Transformers (BITs) which are well-known to offer the following benefits: 1) common mode noise cancellation 2) low pass filter (attenuation of uncorrelated high frequency noise 3) ground connection/pin isolation
As you well know, in a typical AC cable, there are three conductors - Live, Neutral, and Ground - individually insulated, loosely spiraled together, covered in an outer sheath, then covered with a braided shield.
What if we were to take the two AC conductors - Live and Neutral - and place them in a star-quad configuration, with the two individual conductors “split” into two, and then inserting the four conductors (and spiraled around each other) in a manner which resembles your Iconoclast XLR geometry - would this be optimal for the transmission of high voltage AC? Where would the remaining Ground conductor be placed in this star-quad example?
Would the center core of the star-quad cable be the “quietest” place, and hence the optimal place the Ground conductor should be placed, notwithstanding the certainty that this Ground conductor will be physically much shorter in length than the Live and Neutral conductors which will be spiraled in a larger diameter (around the center Ground conductor)? What would be the consequences of non-identical lengths of copper conductors between the Ground and the Live/Neutral?
Now back to my original question - if the AC being transmitted through the AC cable be “balanced” (ie. out-of-phase, with 60V in one conductor, and 60V in the other conductor, to sum up at the end to be equal to 120V), what would the best geometry of the conductors be, for lowest L, C, and R? Would the quad-core geometry (for unbalanced AC transmission) still be the most optimal?
After about 48 hours of use in my third system I put the Iconoclast 10 gauge back in the main system feeding the P15, replacing the AC-12. I have the opposite experience than above, I prefer the AC-12, and after a few hours i put it back in. I’ll put some more hours on the Iconoclast and repeat in a few days, and will try it with some other components as well.
You understood absolutely correct. XLR are the best analog long ron design we have. Still, keep the AC away as nothing is 100% balanced (spec is typiclly 3% unbalance).
Now run away…the cables, that is!
Best,
Galen
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LONG answer, put a warming sleeve on your coffee cup!
I’m COVID-19’ING in place and darn it, decided to re-arrange my POWER system to add a P12 to the P20 I have already. I will replace a “filter box” with a regenerator to run all my source components. The big guy is for the amps only.
OK, the use of STAR quad, like I’ve mentioned before, is for the ICONOCLAST design only. To do it right is expensive. The HOT and GROUND are QUAD design to reduce inductance.
The NEUTRAL should have zero current and ground fault detectors take advanatge of this to monitor that GREEN wire for fault current. Since we don’t care as much about the INDUCTANCE of this NEUTRAL wire, we can use a standard single insulated wire to help manage COST. There would only be bragging rights to up the complexity on the neutral wire.
To lower inductance of the HOT and GROUND (white and black wires) we need to select the right insulation and get the walls as thin as we can to reduce the loop area in the geometry. This is the “magic” if there is any. You have to REMOVE some of the magnetic field’s once the wires are as close as you can get them. Just like the speaker cable!
The three wires are best laid symmetrically in a triplet design for FLEX neutrality reasons.
We will have ONE AWG design on the ICONOCLAST power cords as the market is small, and the cost to do this is HIGH. The bill will stay high even if it FAILS to work as well as intended. If Belden makes what I ask. and they will, how WELL it works is my problem. The expected RF response for passive RF fitering and also the drop in inductance BOTH have to be passing grade. I won’t sell half-way there cable designs.
The cable will be SHIELDED and UNSHELDED. The dielectric spacer for the shield will need to be a special material extrusion as I’d like to keep the really good quality EPDM jacket. This means ultra careful selection of materials.
There are a lot of places you can mess this up if you aren’t careful and also know how SAFETY is built-in, too.
I know you guys are are spoiled by the BAV power cords as I figured out we had a really good cord based on testing that can be “re-purposed” to audio. This is fantastic as we can pass the savings along and build assemblies from BULK standard cordage! Could we have disguised the cord an RAISED the price more? Sure, but Blue Jeans isn’t that kind of company.
Getting the right BAV connector is harder than it looks across the line. That took awhile. But, we have a nice cord for ALL our Blue Jeans customers that isn’t too expensive.
The BAV testing and approval costs were kept to the lab only. We don’t have manufacturing costs to carry forward on the balance sheet. And, I’m retired so I work cheap. So ENJOY the savings on that nice cord. It was a real stroke of luck to find it.
OK, the ICONOCLAST price isn’t even a glimmer in my eye as I design for performance only. That does mean VALUE is still important as I won’t add complexity where it isn’t effective. But, this won’t be a cheap cord I’ll tell you that. And yes, you’ll comment about the “margin” difference between the BAV and ICONOCLAST cord. can’t help you there. We’ll have development carrying costs added in, and an expensive design, both.
The CONNECTOR will need to be re-done, too adding expense as this is a larger size cord. So it all starts over again. and no, it won’t be as flexible as the BAV…can’t meet that, but it won’t be terrible either.
What will it do? Lower inductance and retain passive RF filtering. The shielded will add 100dB of RF isolation
so the reference value of RF filtering is high (but with some added capacitance, more on the shielded…no way to avoid that). But what does THAT do? Depends on the system, same as analog cords. We sell the MEASURED performance, period as this is the “beef”. We don’t do it like everyone else it so we don’t have marketing phrases about the “sound” as it were. Never did, nor can you really.
Our slogan is Sound Design Equals Sound Performance. Pretty straight forward. Lower R, L and C and how to get there is measurable and expensive at the bleeding edge. Try it and see how it respons to conventional cords.
Power cables aren’t as sensitive to capacitance as inductance, but neither should ideally be there!
When? I need to do a bunch of lab work on the ctitical dielectric for the star quad design BEFORE I even CAD the cord. This material will blow out into the rest of the design. If this works out, I CAD the design and we look at connectors based on the estimated SIZE as this is $$$ work for special inserts.
We can get a preliminary PRICE estimate from the CAD drawing. The bulk development cost is how much we dare make at the first pass. Usually 3K or so of cable. If this works, we get a manufacturing SPEC finalized and min production QTY are set.
I know you all think cable is a “just there” kind of thing. No, it is a complex puzzle to make really good cable of any sort. I thought working at Belden would be the easiest job in the world. That idea lasted less than a week.
Best,
Galen Gareis
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lonson:
I would be curious to get further impressions from you regarding your BAV vs AC12 cables. You said, “I prefer the AC-12, and after a few hours I put it back in. I’ll put some more hours on the Iconoclast and repeat in a few days, and will try it with some other components as well.”
Your comment got me thinking about the merits of the AC12. Why my impression of the two cables may defer from yours. The AC12 allows my equipment to cast a wider images. So a phantom image like an individual vocalist with the AC12 is something like 3-4 feet wide on my dual pair of KLH Nines. With the Iconoclast BAV cables the center vocalist is 2-3 feet wide. These are subjective impressions examples, not actual measurements, and of course reflect my preference for speaker set up.
The 4 KLH Nines were rebuilt by David Janszen, and now rest on what he calls “Outriggers”, or legs, stands. This allows each of the four panels to more stably stand separately, upright or, lean 3-6 degrees forward or backward depending on your preference. With this flexibility of configuration I do not have the head in a vice sensation people complain about with Electrostatic speakers. I can dial in more where I want the sound to be. I also have great soundstage width and depth.
I do have a great secondary audio rig which consists of stand mounted dynamic driver speakers. The sound of music through dynamic drivers reminds me of happy family gatherings with lots of adults and children. There are lots of different conversations going on which pull my attention, and things can suddenly get very loud. Whereas the electrostatics are much like having an intimate one on one conversation where every word and intonation matters to me. And, so what If I cannot hear the deep rumbling sounds of my uncle’s stomach grumbling.
So I am thinking the AC12 may work best with my Dynamic Driver speaker set up, where the additional width in imaging may be good. I’ll try listening and may have some additional impressions in a couple of weeks .
Any bigger, and two of the connectors won’t fit next to each other in a p12.
Unless you use an oblong shape.
Dr. Pain,
I’ve been using AC-12 for a long time and have them on all components in two systems. I have tweaked and tuned and rolled tubes to tailor these systems while using these power cords. I am probably very brainwashed and acclimated to their sound.
I am using the same speakers in the two systems, Decware/Turning Point Audio HR-1. These are fascinating omni-directional/directional speakers that free one from the sweet spot syndrome. https://www.decware.com/newsite/HR1.html
Both these systems use different Decware tube pre-amplification and amplification and different sources and regenerators.
Over a year ago I gave in to spousal persistent suggestion and moved my best system to a smaller long rectangular room that has the system on one end and a bedroom on the other. Sound-staging isn’t the forte here but I am getting truly great sound, carefully dialed in. When I replace the AC-12 with the Iconoclast the sound thins, as does instrumental body, putting me back into a system character I had battled to move away from. Just an hour ago I verified this by replacing the AC-12 going to the ZTPre preamp, which is an easier comparison than the P15 swap as all other components remained powered and the ZTPre was only unplugged seconds. I don’t doubt that I could work with speaker placement, tube changes etc. and move sound with the Iconoclast closer to my preference but I choose not to, liking what I have worked hard to achieve already so much. I am sure the Iconoclast will work very well with the Decware EQ unit I have on order when it arrives and I’ll season it with my bedroom TV til then. I think my experience may indicate the Iconoclast may work well in the system you have with dynamic speakers.
Wow, what a heroically deep and long post of your journey to design, build, and manufacture the Iconoclast AC cable - thanks for your advice to place my coffee cup in a warming sleeve!
What do you think of Balanced AC Power and the five-chambered balanced AC power cable design, where the Live and Neutral conductors are split into two and spiraled in the four chambers, with the Ground conductor threaded and passed straight through the “5th” center chamber?
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I sure appreciate the feedback and perceptions on the BAV power cables. Between the private messages I have received and those coming on this forum it seems that approximately 98% are in favor of the BAV “outperforming” the cables they replace, many times cables that cost many multiples more. Evidence too, most customers who originally ordered 1-3 cables to try have come back to order “additional” cables with many ending up with 6-8 cables replacing everything in their respective systems. 10 AWG seem to be the choice for amplifiers and 12-14 AWG on the components about equally in numbers. I started with all 12 AWG in my system but have since ordered 3-10AWG cables for my P10 and Odyssey monoblocs.
It’s now been over 3-years since I began working with Galen and Iconoclast at Belden and now with the BJC team. It has been one of, if not the most rewarding periods of my 40+ years as an audiophile and as a member of the industry. I do not work or “have a job,” I go play everyday. This is because of people and souls such as all of you! Thank you! Every day is different and as varied as the systems each of us have. The choices are infinite as are the rooms these components, speakers and cables are placed in. It is no wonder that the subject opinions are as varied as they are. “Except,” that the overwhelmingly number of customers who try Iconoclast and BAV products absolutely love them and make them a permanent part of their systems. It does not “always” start our that way…
I can’t tell you how many times I get a note or a message from a customer who “just received” their cables that say something to the effect of “these cables sure sound different” or that “these cables are a challenge to work with.” I’ve even had them say that they would like to return them… Thats when I tell them, “hey you have weeks to audition these cables, please live with them for another week and then go back to your old cables to see what you think.” The cables almost “never” come back! Many customers tell me that their hunt for the perfect cable is now “over!”
So, humans mostly hate change! Sometimes change can be good or be better but we still seem to hate change. When we find a product or solution that cost 4 or 5-times less than we paid for the current product we “really” hate the change that it may provide, especially when it is better. With audio we must learn to give ourselves a little time to grow accustomed to change. Trust your ears and your mind to know when something does sound better or provide the ineffable rightness of the music. Trust your ears! All too many times we learn to “like” colorization over accuracy, warmth over speed and detail and a myriad of possible conditions that in no way mimic the intimacy of a jazz club, the power of a live concert, the presence of a grand piano or the beauty and emotion of a great female vocalist.
I envy those who live where and take the opportunity to experience live music on a regular basis. There was a time that I did and I miss the opportunities to experience music as it is presented in person. However, I have learned that my “system” does a really fine job of “taking me there.” It has been a lifelong pursuit to while on a somewhat limited budget, build the “best system” that I could. I am happy and only have one more upgrade for sometime in the future. I want a Pass amp or monoblocs to go with my XP12! Everything else is finished. I love the PS Audio DAC, my speakers and especially my cables! I suppose everyone saw that last part coming.
So, if you think our BAV cables are better or even “as good” as those $$ cables you had before then we have done our job. Galen is without question the “best” cable designer and engineer I have encountered. Working as part of the Belden team for 12-years permitted me to be associated with some very talented people and I am confident that Iconoclast represents the best value and performance available, at any price. We only ask you to try them… I have truly become friends with a multitude of incredible Iconoclast customers. The quality of systems is amazing and impressive! Thank you all for making my days fun and rewarding!! And, I actually get paid for doing this! Imagine!
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We have two measurements; the CABLE diameter and the diameter of the connector BODY…different things so all will be fine at, “that end” (ha!). The connector body has to stay the same.
Best,
Galen
Galen
I’m sure this has been asked before, but what is your recommendation for cleaning terminals, frequency and cleaning material?
Thanks
Ron