Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

[rower30]

I wish I could make this harder just to kid you all, but the GREEN is just the 4x4 OPOCC XLR from the per amp to the left channel M40-HV monoblock. The right channel would have a RED color band on the connector verses white. So that explains that.

The mono block M40-HV is BI-wired to the CWT 1000-40 speakers (the two blue leads). I can flick two switches and I’m class A with BI-AMP (woofer has an amp, mid tweeter has an amp) and a lot warmer too!

That’s all there is to it. Oh, the colors yes, about that. Since this is ANALOG, I chose the RGB colors for ANALOG video, verses digital. So we use Red, Green and Blue. Early on people felt that the OFE copper would be “the best” so it went to “blue”. The final battle goes back and fourth between the OFE/SPTPC and OFE/UP OCC leads. The green is just a color above red, that we use for the TPC line.

We’ll REALLY CONFUSE you with an AES/EBU XLR as one end has a RED collar band the opposite end has a WHITE (this cable does both L and R channels) and the shrink is labeled AES/EBU so you know it is one cable, and you didn’t lose the opposite channel, there isn’t one!

I use an AES/EBU cable from my PS Audio Memory CD player to the DAC I’m testing. Pin 2&3 are L/R and PIN 1 is ground.

I didn’t mean to be weird with the picture. No secret development stuff revealed.

Best,
Galen Gareis

[dchang05]

I have my UPOCC XLR installed for three weeks now, They are starting to sound really good, much better than my previous IC. It is also a smart thing that I ordered one extra foot thanks to this forum, My BHK pre and M1200 are three feet apart, but I really need 5’ of IC to make it with a smooth bend. after three weeks they finally start sagging and I use cable elevator to support them. That is how stiff they are.

Yes, mine came with light green and I like the color.

[rower30]

The 4x4 XLR are a wonderful design improvement for audio. Maybe not so much if physicals are the primary requirement.

Correct, these are true AIR TUBE design. A round tube is the stiffest structure we know how to make. A slight cable HELIX allows a stress reduction bending them but…they are still four pie shaped tubes inside the cable.

I selected the 5 foot recommendation to match the cable’s stiffer nature. TEFLON will cold flow over time. The design is performance first, then first then first. We need the best to see if a true change is audible.

Some will require a highly flexible version and the BAV fit that bill. To do that we relax the dielectric and conductor design to achieve tremendous durability and a low bending-moment force. For those that need the physical’s to be top notch, the BAV are incredible for how little in sound they exchange for physicals.

Best,
Galen

[dchang05]

Galen, thank you for replying my post. I will take UPOCC sound over anything else. Even if they are stiff as rebar (they are not of course)! Thank you for coming up with this great product that we crazy audiophiles can enjoy!

Keep up the good work!

[jaytor]

Based on all the feedback on this forum and a couple of others, I decided to order a pair of 25ft OCC 4x4 XLR cables to go between my preamp and amp. Galen’s transparency in how the cables were designed and constructed gave me some confidence that I’m paying for real engineering.

I’ve never paid this much for a set of cables before, so I’m really hoping they are worth it. If they live up to their reputation in my system, I will try out another pair between my DAC and preamp and also try the speaker cables.

[rower30]

jaytor,

You already know what I aimed for, the calculation and measurements. What we wait patiently for is your input as to if it is really the right benefit in your system. We sell the “data”, witness the test report included with your cables.

The ICONOCLAST brand is designed, on purpose, to reveal if the high spec cable market (I don’t agree with the term high-end, and this is usually just high cost) is a real benefit. If it isn’t better measurement wise it can’t be a benefit over what we have already. All designs have the development papers (done before a foot is made) to justify the improvements made public for peer review. If something isn’t understood, ask! If I can’t answer the question we missed something.

ICONOCLAST is a different kind of product. It’s primary intent was to “prove” a change in electrical was too small over the current fair. Well, we proved that the changes are indeed still “better” but…at a cost. We plainly explain all this, the advancements are costly for what seems small electrical changes we DO measure for you on every assembly. Copper is extracted out on it own for you, too, and all top notch designs are shared across all copper varients…no “seconds” quality cables named after rocks or trees and stuff. Our cables only have the design name and copper type, simply enough, yes? UPOCC 4x4 XLR

Some say the BAV is a “seconds” line. No, the BAV RCA and XLR products are the VERY BEST at extreme flexibility and electrical, both. The RCA and XLR share no peer on electrical performance with the high flexibility and low bending moment attributes. No way a “second” thought was used to make the cable. They were HARDER to make than the ICONOCLAST! Be super flexible yet maintain sound quality near the best.

Second, The ICONOCLAST design and materials …copper specifically, have to be 100% transparent to the end user for evaluation. It can’t be hidden in a different design with different material around it. How do you know if copper made a contribution except the price?

The copper has to stand alone and be judged alone. At Blue Jeans this was set early in the project. Is the COPPER war real? Let’s address that why don’t we? Why would you not do this if a customer is a VALUE to you?

Let us all know what you hear and not what we calculate and measure. That’s all great for a techi but if the cable improvements aren’t a benefit in use, what’s the point? Lots of expensive to make products are “legit” in measure, calculation and design but don’t seem to bring a benefit above the floor value we already have. ICONOCLAST was supposed to establish the floor performances value, it just happens to have MOVED it up. Yes, at a cost, though. This is why it exists…people like you appreciate the new level of performance. I know, we still hate the cost. Can I blame you on that one? We strive to bring the prices DOWN (the new BAV power cords pass a ton of savings to you) and have, by 50%. But there is work to be done with SCALE of sales. We aren’t a Goliath.

Thank you for trying our product. It is 100% return warranted to bring a change that’s a true benefit. The data? Only once it really works is it most interesting, not a song before.

Best,
Galen Gareis

[jaytor]

Thanks Galen. Can’t wait to hear what they sound like.

• Jay

[jvvita]

Hey Galen, while you are at this, could you please elaborate on the differences of the BAV line and the “common” balanced cables sold by blue jeans, using belden 1800F? Apologies should you have already addressed this point here.

[rower30]

jvvita,

The BAV XLR is specifically Vp optimized for analog with a 25 AWG conductor size as well as AES/EBU digital where solid core wire is needed (stranded isn’t so good at RF digital).

The difference is 1800F is designed to maximize cost then performance for analog, the BAV XLR is performance and then cost. However, for the BAV line COST is still very important so significant changes needed to be made to the selected dielectric and process costs.

The ICONOCLAST line is ONLY performance with existing manufacturing processes. Cost is what it is as they say, low volume and more complex to measure properly. We have trimmed the cost 50% since the introduction mostly through the streamlined plant to end user process.

The BAV design XLR uses a special central filler to form a four chamber “air core” design to meet the required physical and electrical parameters. The measured electrical are near the same as the fluorocopolymer ICONOCLAST GEN 1 XLR, but with remarkable flexibility and bending-moment (little force required to bend the cable). The XLR and RCA will bend ninety-degree under their own weight off a surface.

I have a write-up on the BAV XLR in the Blue Jeans Cable site for all the nitty gritty on how the cable was redesigned for pro use, needing high performance cable but also highly flexible and durable products. Use the link at the bottom of the page.

1800F can be easily compared to either the BAV or ICONOCLAST line. We encourage the comparisons, it will shed the most light on why each product exists.

Thank you for asking and we do our best to provide meaningful design comments for you to follow and evaluate.

https://www.iconoclastcable.com/blog/?cat=6

[jvvita]

Thanks for taking your time. I just received some blue jeans 1800F interconnects. I will try them on, expecting no sound signature from them. Planning on also trying the iconoclast line.

[BobBJC]

Jay, you are absolutely going to be amazed at the UPOCC 4x4’s. It will not be a small or subtle improvement, it will be a “WOW!” improvement. The speaker cables provide an even greater improvement in sound quality that most customers compare to a “major” component or speaker upgrade.

I saw your order this morning. Our techs, Andrew and Jeff will start on building and testing the assemblies. You close enough that you should not have long to wait to have the cables in hand. Enjoy!!

Bob

[jaytor]

What is the consensus on break-in for the UPOCC 4x4 interconnects? My cables are scheduled to arrive today, and I’d like to get an idea of what to expect “out of the box” vs after some break-in time (and how long).

Thanks,
Jay

[rower30]

Jay,

Less time than typical for any break-in. The dielectric that is primary around the bare copper wire is “air”. The ICONOCLAST are a step dielectric (air then plastic) and air is pretty much always the same. The picture shows the detail, we have four bare 30 AWG wires @ a plus shaped filler, they sit in an air space groove, four of them. A stabilization thread is wrapped around the assembly “conductor”. Again, we have four of these so sixteen wires are inside the cable! Yes, a lot of small wires to manage but it is worth it for the advantages it provides.

The plastic dielectrics that are farther from the majority of the wire will have a lessening logarithmic squared law impact on the sound. True, plastic that is farther away will thus “break-in” slower, but this plastic has far less of an impact. Were the EM field is stronger, nearest the wire, air is the primary dielectric. The plastic farther away won’t matter as much. They should sound good straight away.

Best,
Galen Gareis

[dchang05]

I have mine in between Pre and amps for a couple months. They sounded good right out of box, but it took a couple hours to settle in. But I remember they sounded a lot better a couple days later when I played the same CD.

It could well be my ears and brain adjusted to the sound too.

[RonP]

My experience exactly.

[rower30]

I’ve been asked again, why the super small wires? Isn’t this kind of pointless as the speaker cable DCR is the same as 1313A? Or, in the interconnect the wire DCR and capacitance goes up, isn’t this bad?

The chart below illustrates what the cables do with changes in L and C. As the wire size and capacitance values are changed, we see Vp adjustments taking place.

The Vp, speed of the electromagnetic signals in the wire, CHANGE with frequency until we hit RF (above 1.0 MHz). This is a time based distortion all cables will have in the audio band. We go from “zero” Vp at DC (the signal is always there, it never reverses or alternates) to RF where we hit the liming Vp of the plastic used for the dielectric. At RF the equation is simply Vp = 1/SRT(e). As we go down in frequency we slowly merge into a different equation; Vp = SQRT ((2OMEGA)/(RC)). Notice R and C are in the denominator, and need to go UP to lower Vp at a specific frequency.

We need to make significant design changes utilize many smaller wires. In the IC and speaker cable. Each wire is designed in parallel so each wire sees the total capacitance. But, we INSULATE each of the IC and speaker cable wires so the current is forced to SPLIT between them and we see a much higher DCR through each individual wire, and this is what adjusts the Vp through the audio band.

IC use 4 x 30 AWG with an air spacer to keep them separated, thus we split the current and share the total 17.5 pF/foot capacitance. The IC (pink trace) see little current so we can really cut the wire size to good effect. Yes, capacitance goes UP from 12.5 pF/foot in the GEN 1 digital/analog IC to 17.5 pF/foot in the 4x4 and 1x4 IC, but this is actually a benefit to better align the Vp across audio. The PINK trace is the 4x4 and 1x4 ICONOCLAST trace, with the 24 AWG the Speaker cable.

We are forced to use a LARGER wire in the speaker cable to balance DCR to a low value to mitigate voltage drop across the cable. Notice what I’ve done on the speaker cable, though. I INCREASED the capacitance to 45 pF/foot nominal such that Vp linearity is as good as a 28 AWG IC cable with a 17.5 pF/foot capacitance! The two traces are one on top of the other. The Vp improvement is far, far better benefit than lower capacitance as the first order low pass effect is way above our 20 KHz requirement. We need to keep capacitance reasonably low to be neutral to amplifier circuits, and not cause high frequency oscillations. It is a balance of design attributes. I designed the 24 AWG speaker cable perform and test as well as a 28 AWG IC would!

Better to try to keep the Vp as close to the same (increased coherence, or the same at every frequency). Clearly we can’t do that, but we can IMPROVE the Vp with careful design changes that aren’t really easy to do. The math does tell the story and what ICONOCLASTS is about.

We have a better cables. It can’t sound better if it isn’t actually better. Now we can know we are comparing improvements and what they might do for us. The fundamental tone to the harmonious will stay better aligned and give each instrument a more lifelike sound per the chart below. The changes are real, so now we can compare the performance.

All ICONOCLAST and BAV use the Vp linearity property as much as I can with existing equipment and manufacture. We designed equipment to make the 4x4 and 1x4 IC better, and in use suggests we have improvements in the sound.

So for those that want to know WHY stuff works, here it is.

Best,
Galen

ALL capacitance are 17.5 pF/foot except the ICONOCLAST 24 AWG speaker cable, which is 45 pF/foot.

[paul172]

Hi Galen,

I’m going off topic here but with a lot on the forums of what I2S cable to use for the Perfectwave SACD transport. Does Iconoclast have any interest in the production of (audiophile) HDMI (I2S) cables, USB cables, and any other digital cables?

Thanks, Paul

[rower30]

Hi Paul,

What USB needs is super good shielding transfer Impedance values and low internal cross-talk. Attenuation isn’t as big a deal as USB are shorter cables. A 24 AWG is over the 28 AWG signal wires in USB now, where the power wires are 24 AWG.

I’d use 24 AWG Individually Foil Shielded BONDED Pairs and a 110 dB isolation outer shield. But the cable has to be assembled and that is not easy to do in small qty.

The I2S is a HDMI cable but it uses the internal pairs differently. You could use Blue Jeans Series One 23.5 AWG HDMI cable for I2S. Just don’t run the I2S to a standard HDMI port. This is a killer good HDMI cable so we’ve already got the product. It just isn’t in a fancy jacket!

Series-1 Facts:

• HDMI certified (to 25 feet “high-speed”; to 45 feet standard);
• Made with high-purity ETP copper conductors
• CM rated (higher rating than CL2) for in-wall installation;
• Unique Patented Bonded Pair Construction;
• This and Series-FE are the only HDMI cable stock made in USA
• Click for our “Design Notes” article on this HDMI cable.
• Gold-plated connectors; Available in black or white jacket
• Supports all HDMI protocols and standards, such as 3D, 4Kx2K, 1080p, etc.

Best
Galen Gareis

[paul172]

Thanks Galen, I’ll give the HDMI a try!

[BobBJC]

For our friends across the pond. This is the first time we offered the Schuko plug on our power cables.