Nope, our customers are always on time and the right time, same as the cables! We’ll take care of you.
Best,
Galen
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Go for zero impact at all stages is the best policy. Don’t try to offset distortions with equal and opposites. Kill them all. Don’t make two distortions into a marriage that will go bad on you in time.
That said, the sound of the metals is not going to track from cable to cable or design to design. It is different in every design / product.
The OFE in ICONOCLAST speaker cable is more central and images slightly larger. Tha does not translate to any other product, manufacturer or design. I can’t stress that enough. How the metals change the EM time based voltage superposition is not currently understood. But to sound different the EM wave we call a signal has to be changed in time.
The metals are a tertiary situation that is less impactful the better the underlying fundamental design is. It can’t remove the influences, though. As design improves, lesser metals provide a superior sound, and yes the design lifts all boats but the great thing is, the products are more affordable and sound way better than before at the most cost effective material BOM. Good design is a win-win.
Best,
Galen
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I see the fires near Boulder and hope that all of those at PS Audio and our large number of forum members who live in the area are safe and well. You are sure in our thoughts and prayers!
Strange weather everywhere it seems. Seattle has largely been crippled for a week with “SNOW!”
In the mean time, here in sunny Florida it will be 80’ degrees today.
Happy New Year and the very best for 2022 to all!!
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I watched your full session, very interesting. I can’t say I understand it all, and as you mentioned the story wandered through various sub-topics, but I did learn new things. Even though the clarity and structure of the information (also in the white papers) could be further improved, I appreciate the in-depth engineering explanation of your cable designs. I do not know of any other cable company doing this.
We will keep trying to make it more clear. The information is a MOBIUS strip and where you start can make a difference but…it all has to loop around to make sense. Not everyone will be as comfortable at various starting points, I agree.
This is why an interactive presentation is best, we can stop and get everyone lined up as we go. The .PPT isn’t really stand alone at all…so your comments there are accurate, too.
I’m trying to make the second presentation clearer and the information is even more complicated but…you deserve to know WHY I added a more intense design option.
As far as what we do, this is all Belden ever does. We even have a BCWK, Belden College of Wire Knowledge. It may not get as intense as explaining a complicated analog cable (way worse than RF designs) but it is more a what we know and how it works approach we felt would benefit everyone buying ANY brand cable. All cable obeys the physics.
Best,
Galen
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@rower30 So you’re talking about the new design paper.
My guess regarding your cryptic post and möbius strip was pretty good deduction.
Can this Mobius strip be added as rework retrofit to our existing Iconoclast cables by BJC perhaps? Or is the new build more complex and complicated and require new from scratch cables.
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Tick-Toc, Tick-Toc eyes are on the clock…that’s all I can say until the time comes.
Best,
Galen
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Manufacturers get the “double blind” question now and again, and the best don’t place weight on those kinds of tests as PEOPLE are not repeatable. Test and measurement is. I just want to make sure we all kind of “get it” that equipment in the end is indeed test and measurement as the basis for repeatable changes. I stress REPEATABLE.
It is completely fair to ask “why” do you budget the equipment you do. The challenge is to get the best (T+A level), or the best for your dollar spent (definitely PS Audio). Both have to have repeatable metrics of performance.
Below is my answer to a proper question by a hobbiest. I don’t think we are aware of HOW to pick “better” and blind tests don’t do that. People are as inaccurate as we get as measurement devices. I remove myself and allow proper testing to lead the way. I make far fewer goofs aligning as much proper science as I can FIRST, then I listen. My answer to him follows.
Hi Philip,
ICONOCLAST test and sell the absolute electrical properties of the cable. Same as Belden has for over 120 years. The audio market wants legitimate improvements to cable design to properly verify in-use changes. If it doesn’t measure better it can’t ever sound better. The cable’s properties don’t change. Better is better and analog cables are far from accurate as the Vp linearity is very non linear as is the swept impedance to frequency referenced off the speaker load, which is also a reactance (inaccurate signal transfer function).
We listen to dynamic signals into reactive loads through reactive equipment. All of our electronics are tested into test loads and not under dynamic conditions into a “reactance”. Amps are tested into static 8-ohm per FCC rules with no reactance. We need some sort of references, but amps aren’t the same accuracy into reactance (speakers).
Cables are all about reactance across frequency. ICONOCLAST tries to correctly adjust the cable Vp linearity with reactive speaker loads into the cable to make the system most uniform. We can’t get near an eight-ohm “load” from cable to speaker, impossible, and I explain and MEASURE why this is factually the way that it is. There is a real change, better or worse, in how the signal moves down the cable based on the design. It is $$$ to do annalog with much more complex designs but it isn’t made-up and can be verified with the math and industry accepted measurements.
Belden goes by the design numbers, calculations and measurements, not blind tests, THOSE are meaningless as they cannot correctly define how one cable is truly different, or more accurate, than another. Remove the people and do repeatable proper tests. We can enjoy pretty inaccurate sound after all (we all like too much bass!).
What we have done, is provide truthful and verified tech on all our products. Something that no one else is providing. This even includes the copper. Does copper matter? You’ll never know unless it is in the EXACT same design except the copper. This is why we use TPC copper as our reference. TPC is VERY good modern copper and we feel it is also a proper value and not at all “low-fi”. Full disclosure, my system uses all TPC copper speaker cables.
Each and every customer does their own comparisons and no two systems are reactively the same. It is impossible to duplicate the sound if the dynamic reactances are not identical.
People want truly better and ligit cable designs to try. We provide that product and every cable is measured that you buy with a test report. I hear your metric that many suggest; better can only be acceptable to me if I can hear it. That’s fine and varies for everyone but it cannot and should not stop true improvements as we go. Should a sports car stop at a GTI? My Porsche Panamera 4 dynamic specs on paper look SO, SO close to the GTI with VASTY different prices. I own both and one is clearly better than the other. Most won’t buy the “other” just yet.
An analog system is contiguous to evey component in the chain. It keeps getting worse, not better, as you go. Belden’s ideal is to improve not just digital but ALL cables. Belden has 1200, 2400, 3600, and 4800 series digital too and all supported with real test to verify each is better and better. We rely on pure testing for BER performance and not visuals on an internet browser or a You-tube video. One is subjective, the other is not. For analog we offer the best, ICONOCLAST, that we can and prove it through calculation, measurements and design to achieve those goals. THAT is what is most “appropriate” and that is what we will always do for our customers.
We sell the full line of Belden cables through Blue Jeans for direct comparison no cost to you. What you can hear is in no way sorting out what is electrically better. Only the proper design and testing is accurate enough to do that properly and that is what we do, and provide as the basis for what you are paying for. We don’t have to sell “the sound” directly as this is NOT accurate you must agree. What is most accurate is how linear is the analog cable’s design to proper standards of measurement? We chose a different approach based ONLY on the measured science that should benefit the analog chain. Who else is properly providing peer review papers on HOW and WHY their analog products work the way they do to industry standards? There is more than just bulk R, L and C to how a cable works across frequency. All our patents are PERFORMANCE patents! Yep, they have to really work or the patents are invalid. Again, we sell the specs as those can’t be cheated measured properly and achieved with good designs…same as digital.
The final argument is price. Yes, ICONOCLAST is $$$ to make and sell in small QTY. No question. But that doesn’t change the measurements. If we can, and we are, slowly lower the price so more can accept and afford truly better cable. And why would you not always use better and better as it falls into your budget? If we can make and sell better measuring cables at or near current “accepted” prices on what you use now, are you saying that you still won’t use them? It is a simple situation to use the best you can afford as long as the metrics are accurate to illustrate improvements. Belden lowers the price of performance over time on ALL cable. ICONOCLAST will be no different as we sell more, we can leverage the prices down.
We are on the same side. Both of us want differences to be real and verified. ICONOCLAST feels it is in the design and repeatable industry standards measurements while you feel it is only in listening. I place more value in the linearity of measurements than my ears, I will tell you that. I use T+A electronics because they place weight ONLY in actual design and measurements. You can add distortion to make stuff “musical” but this is also in the measurements. I like true linearity and am willing to pay for as much true improvements as I can at the time. The source material is what I want to hear, not the equipment. Each stage as good as it can MEASURE. Measurement makes sure my own biases are removed. We all have to draw a line for ourselves and what pencil draws the line. My line is drawn with true test and measurements.
Best,
Galen Gareis
Show quoted text
On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 11:40 AM, phil wrote:
hi galen
I’ve read thru much of your product materials but haven’t found any
blind testing results (I may have missed it!)LMK if you have conducted any appropriate blind tests that support the
claim of superior performance.I have a high end system and could order and test these myself but no
need to re invent the wheel if you guys have already done it, and the
shipping fees/hassles of a return are not worth it for me.all the best
phil vasseur
davis ca
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What’s the latest on Iconoclast power cables?
Will it happen eventually?
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You may want to take a look at this thread and Galen’s response. At present Iconoclas is offering the BAV power cables and Galen is touting low DCR ground paths and the 10AWG conductors to minimize ground induced noise/hum. Also he highly recommends a properly installed 10 AWG 3 wire romex power feed from the electrical distribution box to the outlet(s) servicing your gear prior to spending on power cord upgrades. Minimizing DCR makes complete sense as do 10AWG home run feeds to your equipment. Personally I think there may be more to gained by taking it t the next step and experimenting with various power cords as many on the PS Audio forum have done. Make sure the selected power cords get the fundamentals right. Also keep in mind the power cord is to provide clean 60 hz ac power. In my opinion minimizing electrical interference can be a side benefit if done right; that the power supplies, components, and power sources are up to the task. Selection of various insulation types can add a slight level of RF frequency electrical interference attenuation if done properly.
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I wonder what people are hearing when they can discern the difference between power cable? Gotta be something there, but what?
I’d characterize it more along the lines of what I do not hear.
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Well summarized. Gone is noise, muffled frequencies, and flabby bass. Let’s one hear the music, sharp percussion hits, real piano all in balance none standing out. Strings, brass, woodwinds sound closer to real acoustics and voices. Removes the noise in the power that muddles the capability of our equipment to reproduce the sound.
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Okay. Noise is reduced. Got be the shield because cables aren’t filters. Or the way they’re twisted together.
Yes can be both. Every power cable of different construction sounds different. Wire type, metallurgy gauge , dielectric, twist and spacing
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I can understand the effects that signal transmission cables have on the audio band thanks to Galen, but 60Hz power transmission.over short distances into power supplies is a different thing entirely. The only requirement is that the cable can handle as much current draw as the power supply requires without significant voltage drop. There is no signal transmission other than 60Hz 120v.
I haven’t had the chance to listen to various power chords, and you guys (including Paul) can hear a difference on your systems, so I’m not doubting there is a difference. Just trying to understand.
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These are long listens but both get into the power cords and how they can affect audio. Galen has a good chat too but not as focused into power transmission.
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Galen has said many times that the technology in BAV power cords, sized for the application, are all you need. Beyond that, there can be no real sonic benefit. Or at least that’s what I’ve understood him to say.
But my ears disagree. And I can’t say which has a bigger influence on sound quality, power cables or speaker cables.
For example, I recently upgraded my power cables from what was the manufacturer’s top of the line to what is now their top of the line. I first tried just one going to my P20. The improvement (see @Vmax description above where he nails it) was significant enough for me to replace all 6 in my system; a substantial investment for me.
All that said, this is only MY opinion—perhaps even just my imagination.
The Cable Company lending library is very useful for larger expenditures.
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I would like to have all of one type power cord in my system the best from one designer perhaps. But have found some equipment is not as sensitive as others. The PS audio gear is the most sensitive in my collection of gear. It also reacts the best and improves the most when using RF or EMF absorber materials. No surprise when Paul McGowan himself said he would rather rely on power cords and regenerator, and interconnects for improvements rather than tweaking the equipment in a recent post.
It is the combination of solutions that give the best sound. Swapping cords is easy if you have dollars vs. addressing every thing which might matter in a design. That means costly R&D but is often reflected in ultra HiFi prices. But even the expensive stuff will react to cords.
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I’ve found the same thing: All of my PS Audio gear is very responsive to better power cables.
My power amps, not so much. They responded well to my current cables but “lesser” cables were a waste of money.
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