@frank: I am not sure. I"ll check.
@stevem2: Well, they debut at Axpona. One would hope that they will be in production by then. I think that the bottleneck might be the termination which will be done by BlueJeans Cable in Wa. I am not sure how big their operation is and I am betting that demand for these will get pretty high, pretty quickly.
Excellent. Fairly soon.
My popcorn eating antelope friend will barely finish his first bowl.
I spoke with Galen last night over the magic interwebs. Belden is not ready to release the technical documents that I have seen (darn) or their single “glossy” that they presumably will have at the show. He did send me this to put up in the meantime.
"Will,
I don’t think the group will be disappointed in Belden other than we don’t, and likely won’t, have the marketing GLITZ as we will have the PRODUCT. Oh we’ll have information, but not ads all over and expensive “stuff”. This thinking goes with the quality for the price, too. We will stay Belden through and through. I can’t make this market work for Belden except with an eye on expenses. The cable is SO GOOD, that I have no issues with this lower level of ad visibility if it can get the product out there and let it gather the market based on it’s reputation.
What I can say, is yes, the demand will likely out run our ability to make them, But, the assembly shop has been told QUALITY before anything else. For each person who gets a set, they see just this ONE example so we need to be 99.99% perfect every time. Assembling this level of leads is not easy, and takes considerable patience to do right. Over an hour for a speaker cable set, as an example. You know, I went through part of one with you.
I will more than likely be making them myself, too, to help keep up if we can. I’d love to farm out huge QTY’s but this type of product forbids that with good quality. I can hand deliver them to Hanson’s for early adopters.
And, to insure quality, EVERY set will be signed by the assembler and signed by the test engineer per the test and assembly sheet I sent you. The actual R, L and C performance of your leads will be qualified every time WITH connectors attached! The values will be slightly higher than bulk cable, but this is the REAL number. The “magic” of how those R, L and C numbers are derived are an ears only measurement!
Yes, Belden moves AWAY from unsubstantiated claims, and looks at passive elements that can’t be measured but are auditionable yet are still far from definable so “WE” don’t try to define them. I let the cable do the talking and am quiet about the passive elements complex interactions. What I will say, is that the passive elements have to be there in order to get the sound quality ICONOCLAST™ achieved. Some passive elements can be measured at audio (skin depth) and can be argued as to how much it can be heard. Others can’t be measured at all, yet. There is no end to the controversy.
My end was quality built cable with outstanding real world performance (listen to them!) and with exceptional value. But no, we can’t mass market this level of quality construction. We make the cable in just 3,000 foot lots in our high-end BEC development lab with the best operators we have. The OCC copper takes well over a MONTH to get after the order. A 3,000 foot cable lot takes about seven working days to complete on each cable as each design is pretty complex.
So we wait with patience your report as you enjoy your Beta test TPC speaker cables and loaned UP OCC XLR’s. All comments that are substantiated with digital signatures or contact information are accepted. We can’t use unsubstantiated comments for obvious reasons.
We value your contributions to the ICONOCLAST™ product line and honesty is still the best policy so we want to wear the truth, proudly."
He also said that there will be international sales through Hanson AV.
Prices have not been released yet. I will tell you that I have seen some figures and they are substantially below the price of what I think are competitors in the market. That said, they will not be “cheap” as in Wal Mart but it does appear that they will be a much, much better value than what is currently available at this quality level. My Beta speaker cables have spent more time at other’s houses than at mine and I have heard them on some fine systems. So far, everyone wants a set! I am going to refrain from making comparisons to other brands directly but I have already let the cat out of the bag a bit in previous posts.
Great stuff.
Did I miss it, Will? Will the ICs be available in Balanced form?
Yep. Balanced and RCA.
Thanks Will. I will continue to eagerly await further developments, including your review and pricing and availability (even if that just means to contact Hanson AV).
One is replacing Nordost Valhallas
Hmm…
Meow.
Hmm. Where to begin?
I’ve had two sets of balanced PS Transcendent IC’s, one to feed the preamp from the DS, the other to feed the Streets (using an adapter to make the cable SE) Yes, I’ve been waiting for the BHK for 5 years, thinking it would have come out sooner. But at least I have a balanced XLR pair to go from the preamp to the BHK.
So . . . Replace or not? I don’t think I’d need to. Yet. But we’ll see when the BHK arrives and burns in.
Speaker cables are another story. When I bought the amp 31 years ago the ‘high end’ speaker cable used at the time was a bundle of 8 pairs of 10 to 12 ga twisted stranded cable all run in parallel and soldered to one set of terminals at each end. Each pair of wires ran some amount of the signal. They look like welding cables.
After I upgraded the preamp to the LS26 (tube) unit, I auditioned some speaker cables (Back when my dealer was still in business and I could audition them) and went with the XLO Reference 3 as they sounded better than the Acoustic Zen. A lot. http://www.xloelectric.com/products.php#id=speaker The XLO speaker cables weren’t cheap at $1200 or so, but I could tell the difference to the Acoustic Zen units. And no one here has even mentioned the XLO products at all, so I’m on a limb here.
I did run the old ‘welding cable’ wires from the the amp to the woofers of the Martin Logan Spire speakers (the woofers are internally amped in the speaker) and used the XLO’s for the tweeter inputs. So my system has been, in effect, “bi-amped” ever since I bought the speakers. I just wonder if the old ‘welding wire’ is adding too much capacitance to the circuit and if it’s degrading the signal at all to the tweeters. I don’t know.
So . . . replace or not? Let’s see what the BHK does to the system.
–SSW
Ha! That brings back memories. Back in the mid 80s at my old company I had access to a whole bunch of different MIL-qualified cable types, and we (my other audio nuts and I) would get our hands on scraps occasionally so we’d see which ones made good speaker cables. One of the experiments was with 260 strand 4/0 cable that could be used for arc welding, but in this case was used for a high current military application. It took some ingenuity to figure out how to dress it down to eventually a spade that could be connected to a standard binding post. Sounded horrible. Kimber 4VS (might have been PR) at the time easily beat it. We figured it probably had something to do with overall reactance, given the way it smeared the sound.
Equipment tested: Belden IconoclastTM TPC speaker cable, 18 ft length
Associated equipment: Nordost Valhalla and Odin speaker cables. Belden IconoclastTM UP OCC balanced interconnects, Nordost Frey and Valhalla interconnects. PerfectWave DAC II, DirectStream DAC. Conrad Johnson, Bryston and Hypex nCore amplifiers. Devialet 250. Jadis and PS Audio preamplifiers. Magico, Thiel and custom designed line source speakers. High resolution AIFF files from several dedicated music servers.
I must note that about 3 weeks prior to adding the Belden speaker cables to my system I had obtained a demo pair of IconoclastTM UP OCC balanced interconnects which pass the signal between my DirectStream DAC and amplifier (no pre-amp). Although this is not a review of the interconnects, I had time to acclimate to them in my system and I will say in passing that they, too, are an outstanding product and they will be replacing my Valhallas when they are available for purchase. I also had the good fortune to travel with the Belden speaker cables in order to listen to and compare their sound on several fine established systems, hence the list of components above.
Report:
Physically the Iconoclast cables are small in cross section when compared with some others on the market but quite heavy (or dense), given the amount of copper contained in each one and the relatively tiny amount of insulation separating the individual strands. They are rather stiff and not meant to be bent at sharp angles. Although this stiffness may cause some difficulty with certain in-wall installations or setups that exist in particularly tight spaces, overall they are manageable and less obtrusive than some of the larger-than-garden hose cables available. The appearance of the cables is appealing, being a colorful red and charcoal combination with a nicely finished glossy exterior covering, which I understand is quite durable.
The sound? Outstanding.
-Clear. These cables give a clear, detailed presentation of the music. Your source components had better be good! These will not hide or smear over defects that are upstream from them, yet they do not sound cold, sterile or clinical. Glare is not apparent in the mids, even during louder passages. Treble frequencies are very delicate but quite energetic. Bell-like tones are sweet. Cymbals are convincingly clear without “tizz”, glare or distorted crunch in the attack. You are able to hear considerable detail and overtones in their decay as well. During loud passages evidence of congestion is not apparent and individual instruments can be heard distinctly from others in the mix. Backing vocalists can be identified singularly, even when the music is busy and energetic. I found it to be really sweet to be able to listen into the mix and identify singers as individual performers rather than just as a “backup singer sound”. A few, mostly pop recordings, that I thought were just walls of over-compressed noise and painful to hear were actually quite listenable even at louder volumes when played back through these cables. Will they fix a “bad” recording? No, but my list of unlistenable material just got much shorter. I did not expect speaker cables would do this, in particular, and I am very happy that they did. Big orchestral passages came forward with more impact and detail with much less congestion and blur. The IconoclastsTM seem to give the sense that the amp has increased control over not just the woofers, but the midrange drivers as well.
-Dynamic; they sound very dynamic. I was surprised that when I hooked these up and listened with the same volume settings, the impression was that the system was considerably louder than I expected but measurement of the average SPL revealed that it was relatively the same as when I had listened with my own cables. I attribute this to the enhanced delivery of transient energy with the Beldens. The dynamics, impact, PRaT (Pace, Rhythm and Timing) and coherence are very impressive. This adds up to a very involving experience and gets the toes tapping in a big way. My own relatively modest amplifier sounds much more impressive now.
-Tonal balance. Excellent and again, pleasingly musical. Bass is convincing, focused and sounds well controlled and clear, especially in the midbass region where much of the character of an acoustic bass lives. Midrange solidity and image are outstanding. Vocals are full sounding and solid without bloat that can give an exaggerated sense of warmth. Nor is there added edgieness that is sometimes mistaken for sharper imaging, a welcome find. Piano, one of my favorite instruments to listen to, is wonderfully dynamic with a fine balance of highs, lows and overtones. Just outstanding. Treble brings me back to clarity. To me, the purity of the higher frequencies with these cables is one of their best features. A good amplifier will really shine through these and reveal a top end that is very detailed and pleasing.
-Imaging. Excellent, without being “etched” or clinical sounding. Instruments and vocals have a solid sense of occupying their own space both in the left and right as well as front to back dimensions. I have heard better “you are there” presentations, but only from cables costing up to (?) ten times as much and this by no means indicates that there is something that I dislike about the Belden’s ability to deliver. Again, the imaging with these cables is excellent and the IconoclastTM holds it’s own against costlier offerings from other manufacturers.
Anecdotally, I often will change things to see if my wife, Terri, reacts to the differences in sound. To be fair, she knew that I was installing the Beldens in my system but unprompted, she began to rave about the sound quality upgrade that occurred. Ordinarily she is not one to care much about what I am up to with the stereo, likely because I am always adjusting or trying something different. When she does comment, either in the positive or negative, I am assured that what I am hearing is validated. This time it was in spades. She tells people about how good the system sounds now and even upstages me in her conviction that the sound is so much better. Pretty neat!
On the surface it might seem that a first foray into the high-end audio speaker cable market could not reach this high, especially given that the cables reviewed were exotic only in their design, and not materials. To provide access for those not blessed with a fat wallet, Galen Gareis, a senior product engineer for Belden and audiophile, made a point to have standard copper versions of his cables available so as to elevate the entry level into high end cabling on a more reasonable budget. His conviction that the design of the cable trumps the material selection in a big way was also a driving factor in this choice. He tells me that the emphasis on exquisitely engineered and tested design is “a Belden thing.” Success? Most definitely, yes. When you consider the massive extent of the technological ability and experience in signal transmission that Belden has, coupled with the dedication and expertise of one of their engineers, it seems right on the mark and not the least bit surprising. This sort of thing is exactly what they do, and do well. A home run for Belden and for us.
Great read.
wglenn,great review. You now have my attention… When will they be available for purchase? Any cost data in yet?
Thanks… Mark
Wonderful review! These cables sure sound like the real deal and at a real world price (though we don’t know recisely what that is!?). Do you plan on reviewing the interconnects too?
Excellent review Will. Same questions as Mark–when, how much, and how do I get a pair?
Ditto, per Mark and stevem2.
Additionally, do Belden intend to do anything along the lines of Analysis Plus, where they set up a Signal Generator, the cable and ultimately attempt to measure the wave produced ? I’m have heard (directly, even in my system) that cables make a big difference (positive improvement and negative improvement), but I definitely appreciate a company that can articulate a useful test and why it matters and back it up with testimony from those with credible opinion.
Although, I think I will have to finalise my choice between Audioquest “Gibraltor” (on run out, being replaced by more expensive “Castle Rock”) and Analysis-Plus Silver Oval (on burn-in for test) before these are available.
If the release information isn’t available, it would be interesting to know if these cables are comparable in price, or I’m well below the entry point (which is fine, but it would rule me out and make the decision very simple). Otherwise, I could aim to get by briefly on some other solution, if it were recommended.
With Thanks,
Did some posts disappear ?
They’ve been disappearing/reappearing all day. Some serious work going on methinks
Oh dear…
Much is missing, including the prices and I am unable to get the .pdf to upload.
Yeah its all very weird. Prices are there for me now but were missing most of last night & early morning hours today. Every time I sign on different pages are moved around and week old posts are at top with newer posts missing altogether. Seems at least they’re working on it even now at this late hour.