@BobBJC
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Thanks
Vern
Here is as easy as I can make it. I’d rather say it in a fashion you Do Not understand than to make it a sales / marketing pitch that males you think you understand it, but you don’t. At some point I have to stop and make sure the physics are properly represented.
On IMPEDANCE. Analog is different at every frequency. At RF impedance is a constant value through the RF (roughly 1.0 MHz on up) radio frequency level.
If we look at just ONE frequency, analog or RF, the ratio of Inductance, L , to capacitance, C, is a constant. Easy numbers, if we have a short cable the ratio is 1:2, make it longer it is 2:4 make it still longer it is 4:8 and on and on like that. The ratio never changes in this example, it is always one-half. L and C are Length addative but the ratio never changes. This is true at any single frequency we determine the signal’s speed or Vp.
Why is analog IMPEDANCE a pickle? The speed that the electromagnetic wave travels isn’t the same at all frequencies. The Vp, velocity of propogation (speed), changes from RF to DC. At RF it is as fast as it can go with any given insulator (dielectric). At DC the Vp is “zero” the signal is always there, it never switches polarities which makes the signal current change directions and travel back and fourth in the cable.
If we look at a simple equation with a lot of low frequency gunk striped out, Zo = 10167/ (Vp *C). If Vp changes the Zo, impedance, changes. As we go lower in frequency cable impedance INCREASES substantilly until it reaches DC. Impedance is infinity or undefined. This matches the notion that DC has infinite “resistance” to AC, alternating current, flow. As we go up in impedance Vp DECREASES and this lowers the impedance of a cable. It will flatten out once Vp reaches steady state at RF, radio frequency.
We can play with the RESISTANCE of wires to mitigate how fast the impedance change between DC to RF. To make the DCR resistance low we need to use many, many smaller higher DCR wires in parallel and insulated from each other. This tremendously complicates cable design as more wires impact L and C negatively. Making them HIGHER than we’d like.
The main point is, cable is NOT flat at analog frequencies or exhibit linear signal frequencie behavior moving signal from one end to the other. It has a time based distortion built-in by the physics. We want to minimize that but it takes more $$$ to make designs that really do it.
The argument should be can we hear the impprovements, and not that cable doesn’t have a lot of problems in the analog frequency band. It does, and it can be mitigated to an extent. You certainly won’t hear it unless there is a true difference in the designs. ICONOCLAST provides the difference and you now can try them and see. We make cable from zip-cord on up to evaluate.
Best,
Galen
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Thank you Galen for taking your time to explain it differently. I think I’ve got it. (Just don’t give me a pop-quiz on it next month 
.
You define “Vp” as “velocity of propagation (speed)”.
Earlier, when I looked up the abbreviation “Vp” on Bing, it defines it as “Voltage peak”.
Of course, I accept your definition, but my question is, are both definitions similar, perhaps approaching it from different angles? Or, should I take your definition and forget Bing? Thanks. - Jeffrey in Philly
Both are used but mean different things in context. Voltage Peak is the size of the voltage signal in amplitude. Velocity of propagation is the speed of the electromagnetic wave (EM) in a dielectric between the surface of the wire and the inside of the shield or ground reference. Nothing goes from A to B instantly, not even light. As the EM spectrum drops down (longer wavelengths) the speed does too.
Unfortunately there are only so many letters to use and many, many abbreviations are used several time but mean different things in context to the subject. True, if you are not familiar with the subject, it is hard to know what WTF or WAF mean.
Best,
Galen
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Thanks Galen, No more questions. Jeffrey in Philly
A room full of Iconoclast already, but three REL subs to hook up…
I’ll run one of the RELs low level, with XLRs from my preamp. So first question: are long runs of OCC (as I have for the rest of my system) over the top for a sub?
Second question: am I right in thinking gen 1 TPC is about as far up the price range as is necessary for the cables to supply the REL’s with a high-level connection? BAV is better than Bassline Blue, and gen 1 TPC is better still. But SPTPC (as I have biwiring my mains) is total overkill for sub frequencies…
Third question: with REL’s stock cables for high-level connections you can choose to float ONE of the hot cables (either red or yellow) so that you can set the volume higher on the REL. Are there any elegant options for this configuration with BAV or Iconoclast so as not to have a dangling spade or banana? I’m guessing at the REL’s SpeakON end there will still be three conductors. Maybe this is aimed at @iconoclastjeff…
(Love this thread 
)
Hi all2ofme,
The higher level XLR is best to use 4x1 (four conductors made with one wire each) solid bare copper for the REL subs as they trip off the higher frequency stuff inside at the electronic X-over. Don’t need the silver or 30 AWG 4x4 (four conductors made with four wires each) series II design made for higher frequencies optimizations. The UP OCC is a single crystal copper, and the TPC (1500-1800 grains) and OFE (30-70 grains) vary in crystal structure, but all modern coppers are near zero impurities. That’s the measurable between the copper compositions.
Most users that compare cable use the TPC or SPTPC over the OFE. We have that as a this or that benchmark. Bass will be much, much harder to hear differences than mid/treble. Unhook your uppers and listen to the sub(s) by themselves, ya, that’s what you’re hearing! I would use 4x1 series I or even BAV if your budget is tighter for the subs high-level input.
The second question was the High-level inputs wire option to unhook one of the leads. Well, the only convenient way to do it, is to cut it off at the connector end and just provide the leads you will use “active”. But, this negates ever using it going forward…it isn’t there. Worse, it uses an XLR as a UNBALANCED lead (PIN2 is signal plus, PIN3 is now open not signal minus, PIN1 is usually shield only, but now is signal, ground too). This isn’t the way to use an XLR and you’d be better off using an RCA unbalanced cable if it is available. The electrical of an “unbalanced” XLR is not as advertised and offers zero CMRR, Common Mode Noise Reduction properties.
When you say “high-level” do you mean High Impedance (XLR) or really low-level low impedance speaker cable? If you mean speaker leads, then we can cut a lead flush at the factory, but it is cut, so it isn’t ever there to use again.
Best,
Galen
Hey Galen 
Thanks so much for the help!
I got a little bit confused bouncing around between sections, so wanted to see if I could play back the advice correctly. (For others who come later as well as myself.)
Q1 was about a low-level connection to the powered sub, which uses interconnects. Sounds like you’re saying the original 4x1 XLR cables are the way to go here, and that it might be plenty to get the red TPCs. (You mentioned silver, but as far as I know there’s no silver-plated option for interconnects.)
I’ll use XLRs on this sub, but if I add another later and need to use RCAs for a low-level connection would you suggest the 1x1 or 1x4?
Q2 and Q3 were about the high-level connection, which (as I understand it — highly suspect :-)) uses wiring much closer to speaker cable, but terminated in REL’s own special way on their out-of-the-box provided cables:
Red live
Yellow live
Black ground
This cable has a SpeakOn at the REL end and lets you use whatever configuration of those three wires makes sense at the amplifier/main speaker end:
Sometimes it’s best to float ground.
Sometimes it’s best to use both live wires.
Other times both live wires gives too much gain, and you want to float one of the lives as a result.
How to do the above tidily is question 3, especially if the desired configuration is to have the ground wire and only ONE live wire. I understand that snipping cables is forever, but dangling wires and electrical tape sounds a bit ropey. Maybe it’s the only solution, of course! I know that @iconoclastjeff had a configuration option that binds the two live wires together, but I think this only works if you WANT both. If you need to lower the gain you’d have to go for the three wire route and float one of the live wires. (I think.)
Question 2 is just around which level of speaker cable to use for that high-level cable to the sub. SPTPC, OFE, TPC or even the Belden 1310A. My main speakers are happily using SPTPC, but I get the impression that more SPTPC might be overkill based on what you’ve written. Provided I’ve understood correctly, of course.
Hopefully that makes my questions a bit clearer. Sorry for the imprecise writing!
The REL sub cables we make can be configured any way you want but yes, the “snip” of the extra lead is permanent as it is now tucked under the jacket finish. This is called a low-impedance (8-ohm nominal load) lead. Some call, it high-level. It goes from your amplifier output to the sub input designed for speaker leads.
The high-impedance (47K-ohm nominal load) and sometimes called low-level IC input is fine with bare copper TPC Series 1. Correct, we don’t offer silver plated on the IC cables, RCA or XLR. This is the easiest method. Use the outputs from the pre-amplifier also common to the sub’s input, XLR or RCA.
Usually the best option is technically the amplifiers low-impedance lead (high-level) to the sub as this captures the sound of the amplifier across the board. The REL design speaker leads are also cost effective. The very low frequency subs need a much simpler cable as the signal is fully diffusion coupled across the copper and there is little velocity speed differential at low frequencies.
The REL sub cables are going from the amplifier’s outputs but they are input to a high impedance load so the current requirements are low for the cable. We are sensing the voltage signal only, not the drive current (wattage) used to run your speakers.
Only one REL harness black wire is connected at the stereo amp as the signal grounds are all the same point inside the amplifier. On a true full balanced output amplifier (rare) just the signal + and signal - are used. The ground floats between the + and - signal wires like an XLR.
For stereo subs, use the Right or Left only off each amplifier’s speaker output terminals. For Mono one wire will go to the + and - on the amplifier speaker output to blend them together into one sub.
Bob and Jeff can get the assembly you need with the REL cable. But the use of ONE or TWO signal leads needs to be know beforehand if you want the possibly not needed lead tucked away in the jacket finish.
Best,
Galen
Wonderful, thank you, Galen. All understood re: connections.
I’ll bottom out what connections I need for the high-level(/low impedance — that was what was tripping me up) cables then talk to Bob and Jeff.
Is it possible to use Iconoclast cable for those high-level cables, or is it just the BAV 1310a that’s available?
ICONOCLAST makes what doesn’t exists for two additional levels of calculated and measured performance. The 1313A and 1310A respectively step up the ladder below ICONOCLAST and don’t need to be made again.
1313A is a basic “zip” cord speaker cable with no impedance or Vp alignment. 1310A speaker cable is star quad wired, not used as R+L in one jacket as it was designed for, to lower the open-short impedance. You need a 1310A leg for each speaker so you need two cables. Neither 1313A or 1310A has the Vp aligned with numerous smaller individually insulated wires, however. That’s where ICONOCLAST comes in.
The bass doesn’t need the Vp alignment, so 1313A or 1310A will work for a “passive” voltage transfer cable to the subs from the amplifier. The 1310A’s lower impedance is nice driving a low impedance load (speaker) compared to 1313A. The “high-level” speaker cable, what ever you use, is terminated into a high impedance load and carries near zero current. Only the voltage signal quality is transfered. The subs class-D amps do the current work into the drivers.
Best,
Galen
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A great example of integrity in the cable business — it would be so easy to sell us the expensive stuff for ALL uses, so to hear that the 1310a is all that’s needed for the RELs is wonderful.
Will get the order in tomorrow. Thank you!
Amen to that! 
Good morning all. Our relationship with Treehaus Audiolab and Rich Little began at Capital Audiofest 2022 where we provided IC’s, speaker cables and power cords for his demonstration room. We continued to work together at Axpona.
We’re only a couple of weeks now from the largest CAF yet and we will again work with Rich and Treehaus. This time a special treat where Rich releases his new flagship speaker with Iconoclast internal wiring. This will be an option for Treehaus customers going forward.
I can’t spoil the fun so here is the press release announced today.
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Nicely done!
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no more tree house in the woods
Way back when we were talking about long lengths of power cable being 10 to 15 feet. Your calculation of there being minimal impedance on a 10AWG run was reassuring.
Now that I’m in put-subwoofers-everywhere mode, I’m trying to work out whether even longer runs (30 feet or so) would be problematic. The subs I’m using are all Class D, but they’re sizeable beasts — 1,000W. The long runs and power requirements there mean I should be talking 10AWG again, I assume.
Better to have distant subs on a different circuit (with potential ground loops), or to have them on the same circuit via a very long power cord?
I’d try them and see, but I don’t have such long power cords knocking around
Keep power cords short. They will not only drop voltage across them when they are longer and make it harder on your power supply but can also be a problem for heat and fires. True, most power cord are fine but many an extension cord, and that’s really what a long power cord is, have started fires. The correct AWG size is immaterial to keeping them shorter, it just mitigate the physics of where all the voltage ends up, and you want that voltage to be at the end of the cord, not across the cord as it gets longer.
Best,
Galen