Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

You still have to watch reactance. Changing the conductors is one-third the story. What happens to L and C? If you up the capacitance it can cause problems with amplifiers that would rather run a resistor. The speaker’s impedance isn’t “real” until you factor in the reactance too. That would make a 6-ohm speaker with a high reactance at that frequency look like a 2-ohm speaker to the amplifier. Add cable to that and it gets messy fast. The amplifier doesn’t know the difference between the two, it sees a lump reactance it doesn’t like. Worse, cable is most reactive at low frequencies where it is mostly a capacitor. This is exactly where speakers are most reactive too, and amplifiers have to move the most power. That’s not an ideal situation, but it is what we have. So there are three issues at work to influence how an amplifier manages things. What are we listening to; a cable, an amplifier, a speaker? Well, all three.

Dropping the C increases the L, both are reactances. Ideally we’d have resistive loads but we don’t. My approach to cable is to reduce both reactances, not one. There are strict limits to how long you can ignore one of the three tenents; R, L and C. Whooping it up on two is easy, all three is hard.

ICONOCLAST tries to demonstrate a three prong approach and why we do it this way. If you have questions, we should have the data to support the design. We toss all that out for you because we feel it is about time cable got some love for good electrical design and not sales and marketing campaigns. Sure, it is ugly to go through all the data compared to feel good prose but cable is cable and it does indeed do specific things based on your design.

I’ll have some more interesting stuff at AXPONA 2024 that the data gives away if we look at it correctly.

Galen

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@rower30
Let’s say the wires are meticulously held in the exact same proportion as they now are currently while being thinly enamel-coated. Just for hypothesis, with a similar “glass wire” that circly holds the IC interconnect signal wires in as most an equidistant way as possible. Or something else that adds as little to the surrounding air space of dielectricity as possible.

Iconoclast, a greatly thoughtfully cost-calculated product. I invested ~1800€ including toll rates in 3m pair of Iconoclast speaker cable. Iconoclast, I fully considered important enough that actually my speakers and amp together (would have) cost ~2100€ at that time, so only 300€ (~323$) more. I say this was and is worthful.

I mean, why do we even live in a world where very few other people than Galen ever achieved or thought of as “basic” concepts as the integrity of the wavefront per frequency band of an analogue signal?
It is not complicated to understand mostly because you can read enough of stone-marked proof of the Icono design’s function from Galen.

We should mark down some of Galen’s most important comprehensive physics explanation on a collection of stone tablets.

You’ve been told, yes? What determines capacitance? The distance and / or the dielectric or both? Hum, seems we’ve touched on this numerous time but again this is something fundamental we need to be aware of…

  • Capacitance - driven by the dielectric (some) and distance (a lot).
  • Inductance - Purely proximity and field line controlled. Dielectric makes zero difference.

If I were to reduce the dielectric from 8-mil to 1-mil I’d have a capacitance monster on my hands with no way to fix it. The capacitance and inductance are a LOG function of distance to large increases with proximity of the plates. I can reduce inductance with careful understanding of field lines, but capacitance is a stooge of distance and the stuff between the plates. One move impacts the other, too, as I get the wires CLOSE to hold inductance low, I have to use a good dielectric and average distance (why it is braided in a up-down pattern) between the plates to keep C in check.

Remember, we really want no reactance in our cable. Amplifiers like resistive loads and drive that portion of the reactive vector. As mentioned above, the “equivalent” dissipated power is lower than the rated impedance as it also has a reactance associated with it since cables become capacitors as frequency falls.

All the stuff that is done; add inductance to amp outputs, use Zobel networks, even use more resistive (planer magnetic) drivers and such is to lessen the reactance of a load on the amplifier.

Look at power distribution models. They calculate and measure the load factor and put stuff across the lines so the power factor is “resistive”. This makes the load much more efficient and less wasteful. This “idea” isn’t new at all. Where we have power applied, we hate reactance. Reactance doesn’t dissipate power but stores it in the time domain. Last I checked, speakers are supposed to use power to make sound, and right now. They don’t. The reactive impedance tells you that.

You can’t forget this stuff. I think I caught you not reading your homework! All of this is covered in gory detail for you in the tech papers. When we are at the point we have to ask less questions, not more (or the same ones over and over), we are at the point to probably even make something. School is the many questions. After school is over and you are working is the self taught fill in the gaps time and to actually make something. Not your fault yet Arenith. It takes years to patch all the cause and effects together in your head since every move effects everything else. You need to know this ahead of time when the multi-million dollar machine is spitting out real expensive stuff at production speeds. You can’t promote an empty head and expect results. Titles are great, but the product is what counts. What was the title of the people who made the door assembly on that plane? Do you care sitting next to it? Or, do you want experienced seasoned (as in time) designers instead?

The problem with something seemingly simple like cable, is it isn’t. Sure, you can make anything move some power or signal but optimize it? And even understand that you are making proper changes? Do it so the performance is in proper economical steps that build, and not destroy, the previous steps just to be “different”? Some sell cars like they are rocks, some sell cable like they are weather patterns, I sell cable like it is cable. I can’t get around bad designs as that’s what we sell. To sell that, I need the proper measurements to show I actually have done what we promise you. I have to do what I promise myself I’ve done. That’s what I was paid to do for 35 years at Belden. If I don’t care about myself I sure won’t care much about you.

Sorry ahead of time Arenith, but making stuff at home is one thing, making planes, cars and bridges is another big step. Unless you have a grounded approach to your work you will let people down and this isn’t taught anymore. It was, but not now. We took ethics classes for engineering. My condensed versions are;

  • You are what you do, not what you say.
  • You become who you hang with.
  • Leave people and places in equal or better shape than when you arrived.

I can’t design crappy stuff and do any of the three tenets above. That part is pretty simple to figure out.

Best,
Galen

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Wiser words were never said.

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School is always in session. Every post holds something new to me, like the revelation above. Things start making more sense as their signal path relationships are better understood.

In general, reading and understanding something in the moment is very different for me than digesting and integrating something into my knowledge base. The math and physics (at a basic level of understanding) seem to be fairly straight forward but there is a lot to digest!

I’ve read all and reread some of your papers available on the Iconoclast site and watched a video presentation or two. I’ve not integrated the specific relationships into my knowledge base yet but have come away with a clearer understanding and appreciation of VP and phase coherence (as it relates to both cables and signal path in general).

One of the greater takeaways for me is how and, more importantly, why to be skeptical of unsubstantiated marketing claims of superiority. I’m sure different design choices leave unique imprints that many will hear and maybe prefer but it’s not so clear the reasons are understood.

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Here are two good articles on grounds and just how electricity works. A good read for our hobby, too. Remember my comments on why power cords DCR is important and RCA IC ground differentials we build-in with cable and wire. It is all here in detail. Igor’s lab did a lot of work for us!

A few teasers…

“. I was also working on a completely different article at the same time, which dealt with audible ground loops in PC audio and their elimination, and was somewhat surprised that all the causes could be reduced to a common denominator!”

“The things that can very often be heard disturbingly in onboard sound and that can even have a negative influence on internal or external sound cards have most of their causes in the topology of the ground flows. I will discuss this again in a follow-up, where it is possible to isolate the internal sound card from these interfering noises with a single movement and how you can also manage to acoustically pacify external DACs or clean USB signals from these effects. This would go beyond the scope of today’s article, but it builds on exactly what we have seen today. The internal sound card could not be suppressed by any shielding, no matter how elaborate, but it could be electrically isolated from the housing. That’s a spoiler for now.”

Best,
Galen

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I am going to get an Audio Quest Jitter Bug FMJ, and insert it between my AMD 5600G streaming PC (internal GPU only to reduce EMI noise!) and my T+A SD3100 HV DAC. This should keep any digital correction jitter from noise in the ground to a minimum. My stuff is all on the same circuit, but the feeders are differential, so we have the unequal return ground paths! Yep, just like I’ve always said you will.

Power cords are the main driver to the wall so keep the return paths LOW DCR! Add galvanic isolation to digital…but DO NOT use cheap ones that can’t manage the data rates and required voltages to reach them! Isolation will keep the signal error correction “off” and remove timing jitter. It isn’t that the error correction can’t fix the signal, it is the jitter signal delay caused by the circuit as IGOR’s Lab points out. No junk from the PC onto the USB line to trigger error correction!

PS Audio has taken to galvanic isolation, and now you know why. It is all very real and good to address it. As stuff gets more and more higher frequency digital it will get WORSE, too! well, unless we know the enemy and correct it. The analog side will get impacted just the same but at a lower frequency (hum). This is where XLR come to the rescue. The ground floats and common mode hum and noise is passively canceled.

I hope the two articles help to understand what is happening, and that the return paths for grounds are unpredictable and cause lots of problems. What goes in returns in too many different paths and that’s the making of a ground loop. We have a differental current where the return and supply are differing! Our audio stuff suffers the same fate as a PC. Please don’t give up on the two articles, he’s German and some won’t be familiar with the terms as much but do forge ahead, it isn’t all fundamentally too complicated.

I’ll keep you posted on the Jitter Bug FM. Need to get one tomorrow. In a perfectly good world, it won’t impact a thing. I don’t think my world is that.

Best,
Galen

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Wow, internal ground loops. I would not have imagined. I wonder if Apple is any more careful in how they handle their returns. You would have thought that someone would have insisted on an industry standard scheme for this, if only to prevent damage, let alone how it could affect the audio signal. Obviously not a high priority in the computing industry.

Will,

Ya, really bad grounding in a PC. Look at the current into a node, and then what comes out! Not the same at all, ground current fragments across the PC. Look some of the ground returns that are 3X what went into the node! If a return path is near a DAC or analog circuit, high current will also inductively couple the ground magnetic field energy as NOISE. There is really no attempt to keep the ground current low near those devices right now.

I=E/R so we keep “R” (power cord) low to reduce the ground currents.

Our Audio stuff can do exactly the same thing. All we can do is manage the external grounds (keep them as low as possible between devices). The internal ground path(s) is up to the manufacturer to keep a steady hand on in the design process.

This may also be why digital “sounds better” with an isolated ground, the error correction circuit is driven batshit with noise under some cirumstances, and why it is a variable for everyone. Thus all the arguments on who says it was an improvement and who says wasn’t. The isolated grounds in PS Audio equipment is a start at keeping external gound loops away! The internal circuit grounds are still a company secret.

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Sorry if this has been covered already but I’m curious to hear any thoughts on cable directionality.

I accept that for some new cables there may be no discernible difference in sound connecting a cable one way or the other. But what about a cable that’s been connected and used for long periods and is removed from the system for whatever reason? Wouldn’t it be advantageous to reconnect it with signal flow in the same direction?
I ask this as someone who can’t find directional arrows on his Iconoclast cables and thinks he may know why…

AC is alternating current. The dielectric is constantly polarized both ways.The PHASE of a speaker is more audible to some as the initial impulse will make the driver go OUT, or IN. But AC polarization is not easy to test in any meaningful way so we don’t suggest we think it makes a difference.

But, you can certainly switch the cables any way you like and listen. The grains are all the same orientation in every wire based on how the cable’s are made (same rewinds through the process). We know the draw direction changes the grain orientation, what we don’t know with tests is how that changes an AC signal. Even DC does not show a DCR change one way compared to the other. If orientation was like polarity, the wire could possibly be best one way or the other.

To determine this for yourself, mark your cable ends and flip them as such;

++ (starting orientation you have)
± (change one cable)
-+ (change the other)
– (flip them both)

If you feel that the changes are there nothing stops you from using that arrangement if connectivity allows it. If a cable is marked for orientation, it needs to use the grains to do it. But, can’t really say which grain orientation is best as again, which polarity reversal do you want to be one way or the other?

I’ve switched the cables but haven’t ever heard a difference until a major shift in the general DESIGN changed. But that changes the cable skin depth, DCR, reactive impedance and Vp properties across the board, orientation doesn’t matter.

Best,
Galen

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Exactly what are the limit marginals in terms of measurable DCR in regards to what bandwidth?
With the modern day instrumentation, that you Galen must know quite well. Not hand-held devices, the big stuff.

DC doesn’t have “bandwidth”. We use a Valhalla DCR unit good to one thousandth of an ohm and temperature compensated. If it is important, it is too big to hold in your hand!

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PLEASE HELP - We’re looking for feedback, opinions, suggestions and/or advice on our website. We have a bit of a debate and quandary over the “Iconoclast” website. Specifically how it measures up in the marketplace and the world of high-end cable assemblies in which we live.

https:// www.iconoclastcable.com

Some express to us that the current site is a refreshing departure from all of the others in that we only present the no-nonsense engineering approach leaving the fluff, the bling and the snake oil outside the door. A no bling and no frills approach.

Others say that the website is unprofessional, does not reflect Iconoclast in a manner expected in the high-end world. Some say that some who shop on the net will immediately depart the site as it presently exists.

I have a strong opinion about the need for a complete website overhaul but need to remain neutral😌 since it is you the audiophiles, the customers and the prospective customers that I’m hoping will respond.

Please don’t mix the Blue Jeans Cable customer with the Iconoclast customers as they are not the same. I have a tough hide and am ok with being pelted with rocks.

What say you? Please take a few moments to reply.

Bob

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I thought it’s fine, I would fix the auto complete in the text box that added “foot” to the text box, making it annoying to change to the length, which I usually do to see cost differences.

Hi Bob,
Hope you and your bride are well.
I dont have any issues with the Iconoclast site but I will take a closer look and see if I can make some suggestions. It’s probably a little on the “plain but certainly usable” side but simple nuts and bolts approach is fine with me.
Vern

It needs a redo. It looks like a high school project from the late 90s.

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Yeah, the site has that “we put our money in the product, not in marketing” sort of look (which can be a positive with an engineering driven product) but it looks severely old school and does little to grab your attention. It forces you to do the deep dive to get the meat and a first look at the number of paragraphs required will turn some off.
Some succinct bullet points with photos and testimonials to back them up would help. When Galen talks about how “design trumps metallurgy” or “only the Belden plant can make this cable”, illustrate your exclusivity. I haven’t seen cable manufacturers show how the sausage is made. You don’t have to be slick to make your mark because value is part of your mantra, but say and show in an honest and succinct manner…and leave the deep technical talk on linkable pages.

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I do think that it needs an update. New graphics that are consistent with the times and technology but it doesn’t have to be overly “slick”. I know that Kurt wouldn’t want to go there, and good for him, he’s always avoided the “Madison Ave” approach and I have great appreciation for that. It doesn’t have to look amateur, though, which it does right now.

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I’m kind of with @straightwire and @wglenn on this, Bob. Sadly, at least IMO most audiophiles are attracted to bling and important sounding words. I’m not suggesting you go there, of course, but right now the sight has the feel of something engineering students might have come up with. All the data is there if you want to find it, but unfortunately honest data does not an attention grabber make for most audiophiles. I’m just calling it like I think it is.