DirectStream DAC Output Level

Audio Components DACs
61
Elk said

Meaning you think the vast majority of recordings are awful to listen to?

Are you stating you find that most (all?) recordings need the midrange emphasized? That they are all flawed with a recessed midrange? Do you find the flaw to be the same with all recordings, or does it vary from recording to recording?
The best to address this would be to use a player which accepts VST plug-ins and add EQ as desired. I suspect that what you find to be necessary midrange sweetening might not be what others want.

Meaning I find many recordings of the music I listen to, on a neutral system in my room, to sound analytical and not musical. Sure if you pick them apart, they will have their redeeming features like detail, treble extension, clarity, propulsive rhythm section, etc. but musical involvement and flow will be absent. Again, my analogy to reproduction on a Krell system I used to own.

I am saying that these recordings I listen to, on a neutral system, in my room, benefit from midrange richness. From what Jazznut is saying, I believe he shares this view

“But if a certain harmonic richness in mids is missing somewhere or from a main component, this not only influences nearly all kinds of recordings at the same time, but also is nearly impossible to influence/improve to the point afterwards.”

“Back to where we came from: IMO near “uncolored, extremely neutral” gear (as acoustics) tends to encourage analytic, comparable listening of good and similar recorded music while little richer sounding gear or acoustics or neutral gear with tonal tweaking options encourages to explore a wider musical spectrum and more focus on the music.”

I find even in some already decent recordings that a slight added midrange emphasis causes no harm - it’s just a different presentation that doesn’t detract from the musical message but brings it out in another way. In my system, it came out as the vocalist being a solid presence in the room, as opposed to the voice with more “mouth” effect filling the room. Who is to say which is more correct? Neither are exactly live. Both are pleasant to listen to.

I was disagreeing with your contention that the problem lies in the system and not the recording. Ultimately, both should work together to provide the listener with a pleasurable musical experience.

My system already veers towards some midrange richness but adding the DS into the chain took that away to the extent that it affected the musicality for me. It is a small amount but in these matters, small amounts have a large effect.

To this end, I agree with your views on personalised EQ. Perhaps a selectable filter or firmware can be made available for the DS in future. This is why I asked if there is an older firmware which retains most of the attributes of Torreys but with midrange richness.

Do you listen to any of the music we discussed above? Do you find blaring brass like in a Pharoah Sanders blowfest played on a neutral system not hard and grating on the ear so as to make you want to turn the volume down but doing so will obscure the detail when the piano and rhythm section come on? I guess it all comes down to taste.

I recently read a review in a popular online version of a magazine that describes Trane’s “A Love Supreme” as sounding warm. I don’t think that would be a descriptor I would have applied to it ever but listening to it on a Harbeth or Rogers fronted system with a full on midrange bump, it was darn pleasant.

From what I have heard so far, the DS, in my system, needs some midrange richness and ultimately may not be right for me. I do like and appreciate what it does and would like to keep it. At least enough to try a few cable tweaks. What is the received wisdom on power cables with the DS? If the DS does go, it will be the shortest lived component in my setup.

62
Ted Smith said If you use the attenuator to lower the signal and then use a preamp to amplify it back you haven't achieved anything. The attenuator will lower the noise and then the preamp will amplify the noise again. What's worse, a lower level signal will be more subject to interference, noise, etc. so you probably loose something by sending lower level signals thru your interconnects instead of line level signals.

As rules of thumb:

If you have a preamp, you are probably best off using it for volume control and having the DS’s volume set to 100 without using the 20dB attenuator.

If you don’t have a preamp and you typically listen with the DS volume at 60 or higher you are probably best off not using the DS’s 20dB attenuator.

If you don’t have a preamp and you typically listen with the DS volume at 60 or lower you should probably use the DS’s 20dB attenuator and a higher DS volume setting.


Hi Ted,

I won’t have a preamp in my system and will being using the RCA outs of my soon to arrive DSD Snr (PWD Mk2 + Bridge II + DSD Upgrade Kit).

Will pressing the filter button on the remote alternative the output voltage between 1.4Vrms and 2.8Vrms?

And going by the rules of thumb should we be ideally be finding the gain setting so that we are listening to music between 80-100 on the DSD Snr’s volume setting?

Cheers, Sean

63

The filter button on the remote changes the output levels by 20dB (a factor of tenfold). The differential output level of the XLRs (2.8VRMS) is twice that of the RCA (1.4VRMS), but whether this ends up making a difference depends on the rest of your system.

The volume range you use depends on your personal preference, your taste in music, and (in my case) whether it’s the middle of the night or the middle of the day :slight_smile: Some find that they prefer the sound of the DS at lower numbers while using the high range setting over using low range and higher volume settings - the good news is if you can use either one, you get to decide for yourself which one to use :slight_smile:

There’s no need to stress over these things until after you have your system set up and then only if you can’t get to the volume levels you need for your system to sound it’s best.

64

[superfluous quote deleted]

Thanks Ted. Can’t wait to start using it when it arrives.

65

Hi Ted, for adjusting the output levels the manual says “DirectStream also has two output levels available to users. Go to the setup menu on the front panel touch screen to select the best output level.”

But when I press the cog wheel on the DSD touchscreen, it only tells me the firmware version and build # etc for the unit.

The only way I can adjust the output levels with my unit is with the remote control. Is that correct or am I supposed to still be able to do it with via the touchscreen?

I’m running Torreys Final.

Thanks

66

The advanced screen (“cog screen”) calls the 20dB Attenuator “Level: High” or “Level: Low”. There is a green button with two curved arrows pointing at each other which toggles the 20dB Attenuator.

On the remote the “Filter” button toggles the Attenuator.

67

Hi Ted, when I press the cog wheel in the top left corner, all I see is the attached.

I can’t even see or work out how to get to an “Advanced Screen” using the touchscreeen.

IMG_20161209_1207391-2.jpg

68

You are on the right screen.

Press the green button on the lower right to toggle between high and low output levels.

69

Jeeze louise I’m dumb.

Thanks heaps for that.

70

We all miss the obvious on occasion. :slight_smile:

71
Ted Smith said The filter button on the remote changes the output levels by 20dB (a factor of tenfold). The differential output level of the XLRs (2.8VRMS) is twice that of the RCA (1.4VRMS), but whether this ends up making a difference depends on the rest of your system.

The volume range you use depends on your personal preference, your taste in music, and (in my case) whether it’s the middle of the night or the middle of the day :slight_smile: Some find that they prefer the sound of the DS at lower numbers while using the high range setting over using low range and higher volume settings - the good news is if you can use either one, you get to decide for yourself which one to use :slight_smile:

There’s no need to stress over these things until after you have your system set up and then only if you can’t get to the volume levels you need for your system to sound it’s best.


Hi Ted, I’ve now had my DSD Snr playing for a few days and love it. Just wanted to get a better understanding about this volume attenuation now it’s in my system.

Is there any difference in outputs between these two volume control scenarios:

(1) - Volume at 100 clicks and 20db attenuation ON

(2) - Volume at 60 clicks and 20db attenuation OFF

I understand (1) goes through a shunt resistor and (2) doesn’t and so (2) is purely digital attenuation.

In theory only, what’s the difference between the end result when the sound/signal reaches the analogue outputs of the DSD? My understanding is the output voltages in these 2 specific cases will be identical so if someone hears a difference what could it be down to (assuming all other things are equal)?

Before someone says ‘just listen’, I completely agree but I love the Engineering inside this product and love reading about how it works. Having said that, I’m just after a high level response if that’s possible. I know you’re flat out working on Life After Torreys and that’s more important of course

Many thanks in advance and please accept my apologies if any assumptions above are incorrect

Cheers, Sean

72

I’m not Ted, and I don’t even have a DirectStream DAC, but I can offer a couple of observations.

One point here is that the signal does not go through an attenuator. The attenuator is just a resistor to ground loading down the output of the DAC. Very effective and minimally invasive, but not without some cost.

One obvious difference is that 100 with the level attenuator on should give you a greater S/N at the outputs.

The other difference is that this additional load on the output is certain to have some effect on the sound quality other than simply reducing the level. As Paul is going through in his current Paul’s Post articles, any volume control has some effect on the signal and the real question is what and how much does it degrade it.

Digital attention is easier to do very well and its biggest flaw is in reducing the effective S/N of the DAC. Since the DS DAC is doing its attenuation with many bits of depth (56?) at the Sigma-Delta modulator, the cost in sound quality is very small and the likely greatest issue will be the diminishing S/N and dynamic range.

These are just some thoughts on theory, and the interaction between the DAC, attenuator and the preamp and/or amps attatched are likely more important than just the digital or pad attenuation in the DAC itself. As you are already aware, the true answer in your system is what you hear. Through my own life experiences, I know that often real life results simply do not pay any attention to theoretical ideals. :slight_smile:

J.P.

73

In addition:

The resistors that are used to shunt the load to ground for the attenuation are quality resistors. Some people like the sound better one way and others the other. The extra load itself is nothing for the output stage of the DS, it’s happy to drive a dead short on the outputs indefinitely. In truth, things outside the DS can cause the difference when using the 20 dB attenuator or not to go either way, maybe a little better maybe a little worse.

Using the 20dB attenuator attenuates the noise as much as it attenuates the signal, so it doesn’t really change the S/N ratio of the output.

Using the digital attenuator uses enough “extra” bits that there’s no loss in the digital stream with any digital volume setting.

The only thing that’s left is that the output of the DS is limited by an analog noise floor, so doing a lot of digital attenuation brings you closer to the analog noise floor.

The bottom line is some people have sensitive systems and may hear a little hiss up close to their speakers when nothing is playing and that may be objectionable enough that they want to use the 20dB attenuator. That’s what it’s there for.

74

Thanks Ted. With the 20db attenuation ON, is it best to use 106 or 100 clicks? 106 isn’t over loading anything and contributing to any distortion, is it?

Many thanks again

1 Like
75

It’s best to use what sounds best on your system :slight_smile:

106 is really there for those people who would rather be using the hi range (no 20dB attenuator) but are getting too much noise, it’s sort of a compromise between using and not using the attenuator. The only downside could be that on really compressed music there might be just a little more compression, i.e. you’ll probably never hear it. I’d recommend 100 just because it’s been tested by a lot more users in practice than 106, tho 106 shouldn’t be pushing anything too much. There is no magic volume setting that’s “more pure” than any other (i.e. 101 or 99 isn’t any different from 100, except for the actual volume, that is.)

76

Dear Ted,

I too seem to have a sensitivity issue with the tube gear hooked up to directstream dac(single ended connection) and the hissing noise could be very audible when it’s quiet at night(yes, when I swap in my solid state amps that are RCA connected, it’s dead quiet). I have been thinking about using the balanced outputs from the dac with a 1-1 isolation transformer into the RCA input of the tube amp as suggested. I searched the web for the idea and the attached is the circuit diagram I found. Is this how it’s done? Please let me know.

Thanks,

Peter

1-1_Jensen.jpg

77

Yep, But I think the current part number from Jensen is JT-11P-1: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/transformers/line-input/

They also have prebuilt units: e.g. the PI-2XX : http://www.jensen-transformers.com/product/pi-2xx/ Tho they aren’t cheap. I have some Iso-Max products and they work great.

78

Yes I also found the PWD was clipping when feeding some preamps and most integrateds when set at 100 volume. Works best straight into my power amps between 20 and 38 volume