pwd Balanced Design


#1

Is the PWD is a fully balanced design and as such its balanced outputs are real balanced outputs and not hust single ended signal passed over to balanced sockets?

Thanks a lot


#2
alpyoruk said Is the PWD is a fully balanced design and as such its balanced outputs are real balanced outputs and not hust single ended signal passed over to balanced sockets?

Thanks a lot

It is fully balanced and not a semi-balanced design (so no shortcuts made). But I guess you would rather hear this from PS Audio directly, so they will probably chime in.

#3

Chime. Yes, this is a fully balanced output and path throughout the DAC where it matters. Consider that the output stage is actually a high quality audio transformer which, by its very nature, is fully balanced in every respect.


#4

@paul mcgowan Mr Mcgowan when I use through the balanced outputs due to the reason that my passlabs xa 30.5 is a true balanced design the gain is normally much higher than the single ended outputs. However this time i turn down the dacs volume to around 30s for a normal listening session. Around these levels does the dynamic level of the dac and its wolfson chip decrease a lot? So i lose marginal sound quality maybe… Should I rather use the single ended outputs (for same desibels i can listen around 50 on volume level) and it will soud better due to higher dynamic levels? What are Ur toughts about this? Using the single outputs rather than thr balanced outputs on a higher dac volume will it outweigh the loss of a balanced connection? Thanks a lot


#5

Below 50 or so you are throwing bits away. Single ended might well be better in this case but the best way to find out is to try both and see which you like better.


#6

@tedsmith Mr Smith, in this case Do U think that upgrading (next to all advantages of the DAC technology, focusing on losses on digital volume low levels…) to DSD DAC would help as it has a anaolg attenuator? So I would push the digital volume to a high level, still use its balanced outputs and turn on the 20db analog volume attenuator?


#7

Yes.

The DS -20dB pad helps a great deal for those with high gain amplifiers and should solve your issue.

Additionally, the DS maximum output is slightly lower. The DS’ output at 100 is the same as the PWD output at 90.


#8

Thanks. Regarding the DS, driving both outputs at the same time is not suggested right @pmc7027 ? Is there any other possibility to do it rather than using a Y cable? Cause right now I am driving the Pass through my Balanced outputs of PWD MK2 and my Velodyne DD12+ Servo with its analog outputs to no problem at all…


#9

You can use both outputs of the DS at the same time, but doing so “unbalances” the balanced output. This may be fine for you as you would prefer a lower balanced output in any event.

In any event, I prefer driving a sub off of the speaker outputs of the amp if the sub allows for a high level input. This integrates the sub much better with the sound of the main speakers as the characteristics of the amp are passed on to the sub.


#10

Thanks @pmc7027 for Ur answers. Regarding “unbalances” the output means it will act like a regular single ended output, does it mean this? So I will be losing the extra noise protection and the extra gain of the balanced outputs, right? Can I assume these as true? or does it have any other disadvantages next to these two?


#11
alpyoruk said Thanks. Regarding the DS, driving both outputs at the same time is not suggested right @pmc7027 ? Is there any other possibility to do it rather than using a Y cable? Cause right now I am driving the Pass through my Balanced outputs of PWD MK2 and my Velodyne DD12+ Servo with its analog outputs to no problem at all...
@alpyoruk I have a DD15+ you can use the path thru output to connect the power amp see the page 7 in the user manual. If your amp have path thru output you can use this to connect the DD12+.

#12

Hi @oll unfortunately my pass XA 30.5 doesn’t have pass through. Thanks a lot for the advice…


#13

Ye

alpyoruk said Thanks @pmc7027 for Ur answers. Regarding "unbalances" the output means it will act like a regular single ended output, does it mean this? So I will be losing the extra noise protection and the extra gain of the balanced outputs, right? Can I assume these as true? or does it have any other disadvantages next to these two?
Yes, that is what that means. Although you will NOT lose the extra gain, because with the DS there is no extra gain going Balanced.

#14
woot said Ye
alpyoruk said Thanks @pmc7027 for Ur answers. Regarding "unbalances" the output means it will act like a regular single ended output, does it mean this? So I will be losing the extra noise protection and the extra gain of the balanced outputs, right? Can I assume these as true? or does it have any other disadvantages next to these two?

Yes, that is what that means. Although you will NOT lose the extra gain, because with the DS there is no extra gain going Balanced.


There is a 6dB difference between single ended and balanced on the DS. Whether or not you are using one or two outputs at a time.

How much using both outputs matters depends on the system. There are two issues, more capacitance and common mode noise rejection.

Some systems have very little common mode noise and the potentially lower common mode noise rejection isn’t a big deal for them.

With most interconnects the total capacitance isn’t an issue, but if you have cables on both the balance and unbalanced connectors at the same time you have more capacitance on that one leg. Still for most systems this isn’t a problem, but if you have long interconnect runs it might be.


#15

Thanks @tedsmith was of great help… So in DS’s marketing material when it says using both output actually unbalances the balanced output, it refers to the common mode noise rejection, can we put it into words like this?

My balanced and unbalanced interconnects are just 1 meters in length (single ended ones will be changed with a 1.5 meter) so both capacitance and the noise will not be that much of an issue I guess, also considering that I use Audioquest WELL Signature interconnects.

When U refer “you have cables on both the balance and unbalanced connectors at the same time you have more capacitance on that one leg”… U are referring the balanced interconnects I guess?

Thanks in advance


#16
alpyoruk said Hi @oll unfortunately my pass XA 30.5 doesn't have pass through. Thanks a lot for the advice..
You can sill use the path thru output in the DD12+ and keep it all balanced. Like this:

DS> DD12+> passXA30.5> speakers > smiley-music005_gif


#17

Hi Oll thanks )) yes but wouldnt prefer it cause the critical main amps will have much longer analog signal path an extra interconnect and etc… That would degrade the signal quality majorily… Thats why I want to grt the analog signal as soon as possible to the pass to enjoy that liquid mid range…


#18
alpyoruk said Thanks @tedsmith was of great help... So in DS's marketing material when it says using both output actually unbalances the balanced output, it refers to the common mode noise rejection, can we put it into words like this? My balanced and unbalanced interconnects are just 1 meters in length (single ended ones will be changed with a 1.5 meter) so both capacitance and the noise will not be that much of an issue I guess, also considering that I use Audioquest WELL Signature interconnects. When U refer "you have cables on both the balance and unbalanced connectors at the same time you have more capacitance on that one leg"... U are referring the balanced interconnects I guess? Thanks in advance
I think we are saying the same things :)

You won’t hurt anything to just try things. If you don’t hear any objectionable changes as you change the connections don’t worry about it…


#19

@tedsmith :)))

Mr Smith, I am very curious to test and purchase the DS when it arrives to our country. Regarding that product I also came by another solution to use the balanced outputs (with not overriding the common mode rejection advantage). MSB has a sub isolator (http://www.msbtech.com/products/sub.php?Page=platinumHome) this product claims to isolate the sub amps feedbacks, noise etc… Do U think that using this with DS or PWD’s balanced outputs to drive both the main amp and the active sub at the same time is logical? If I am thinking right, by this way next to isolating the sub (it claims that it has considerable effect even on the main amp) I will enjoy balanced connection advantages on both the main amp and the sub?

By the way, does PWD’s or DS’s both outputs are completely isolated? (Actually I doubt that cause if I am right if that was the case then using both outputs at the same time wouldn’t unbalance the balanced outputs…) (Sorry if I am completely wrong making such an assumption)


#20

Quite clever, but $2k (providing you use stereo subs) is pretty stiff to say the least.