Here is a tidbit from another thread on a guess as to why the PMT could out shine a server. Just my musings, FWIW.
Having putzed with a few servers and noting differences among them I can see where the DMP may outshine a computer server. In particular, the MAC based servers do not sound as good to my ears than PC based ones. I attribute this to the ability to control the software environment, to some extent, offered by Windows and the BIOS/UEFI environment. Having a superior, purpose built device like the DMP to extract and deliver the goods without the extra “noise” of unrelated software processes (‘housekeeping” if you will) could give you a better result. I found that there was a wasteland between a $1K PC server and the $10K+ range for commercial servers where the perceived differences were minimal or mostly absent despite expensive hardware differences. I have not had the opportunity to try the Aurender W20, though, but at it’s price…My experience is neither extensive nor authoritative and YMMV.
Paul, I’m curious about how navigation of DVD-A and BluRay titles on the DMP works. My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere and I missed it. The menus on DVD-As and BDs are extremely inconsistent and it is almost always necessary to have some sort of video interface to allow program selection. If the DMP lacks a video output, is this handled somehow on the built-in display screen or is there a phone or tablet app that provides navigation via the Ethernet interface?
Also, is the CD-Text capability of the Oppo 103/5 system retained in the DMP and displayed on the screen? If so, if a CD with CD-Text is loaded, which metadataset takes priority, the CD-Text or the metadata obtained from the network?
Is the same network metadata source for the PWT being used for the DMP? Is it possible to choose alternate metadata providers?
wglenn said
Is that a picture from China or is it Oz?
Here is a tidbit from another thread on a guess as to why the PMT could out shine a server. Just my musings, FWIW.
Having putzed with a few servers and noting differences among them I can see where the DMP may outshine a computer server. In particular, the MAC based servers do not sound as good to my ears than PC based ones. I attribute this to the ability to control the software environment, to some extent, offered by Windows and the BIOS/UEFI environment. Having a superior, purpose built device like the DMP to extract and deliver the goods without the extra “noise” of unrelated software processes (‘housekeeping” if you will) could give you a better result. I found that there was a wasteland between a $1K PC server and the $10K+ range for commercial servers where the perceived differences were minimal or mostly absent despite expensive hardware differences. I have not had the opportunity to try the Aurender W20, though, but at it’s price…My experience is neither extensive nor authoritative and YMMV.
Without knowing if you are comparing network servers, or servers with direct connection over USB/SPDIF/etc., running something like minimserver or JRiver or Roon, it’s difficult to attribute the differences you might hear to any particular cause. I think Paul has well-answered why it may be that a DMP might sound better than a DS/Bridge in his post in this thread, and it is somewhat similar to what you suggest—the purpose-built and more-recently designed DMP has several advantages over a Bridge, but another poster has observed that there may in fact be additional explanations [or compensations] for the difference, i.e., Ethernet-vs.-fiber. I expect to have both my DS/Bridge and my Select II isolated via fiber in the next 48 hours. Looking forward to that experiment. My own trials with a variety of NAS devices [all built by Synology], as well as both dedicated Mac and PC running either RoonServer and/or minimserver, is that the sound I hear through the DAC seems all-but-identical, regardless of the server, so long as it is properly isolated, and each device in the chain is optimized for its task [it’s really not that hard to do on a Mac] has the best available PSU. This approach has made it possible to do some very interesting comparison between the DS/Bridge and the Select II, and the comparison is . . . ear-opening.
Peanut Butter said
Paul, I'm curious about how navigation of DVD-A and BluRay titles on the DMP works. My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere and I missed it. The menus on DVD-As and BDs are extremely inconsistent and it is almost always necessary to have some sort of video interface to allow program selection. If the DMP lacks a video output, is this handled somehow on the built-in display screen or is there a phone or tablet app that provides navigation via the Ethernet interface?
Also, is the CD-Text capability of the Oppo 103/5 system retained in the DMP and displayed on the screen? If so, if a CD with CD-Text is loaded, which metadataset takes priority, the CD-Text or the metadata obtained from the network?
Is the same network metadata source for the PWT being used for the DMP? Is it possible to choose alternate metadata providers?
Thanks!
-Pb
The network and servers are the same, though we’ve recently upgraded the PWT and its access to metadata and that should be more robust now, with many more albums available. I will have to do a little more research for you on this question as I have yet to play with DVD-A and BluRay titles - though our engineers have. I have RMAF looming this week and it’ll be a challenge to get ready.
It provides excellent isolation - best ever - but because it’s limited, mostly to 96kHz, we decided to keep it off. I’d hate to include it then have to explain to customers how it won’t work on “some discs”. Doesn’t keep well with our goals of making the best transport we know how.
I probably would have included it, not because of the potential better isolation but people connect some strange things to high quality audio equipment. Some of these people may find the lack of optical a disappointment.
I’d like a BNC connector on all equipment, but only because I have pro stuff which on occasion I would like to connect. But I have adapters.
Thanks Elk and as always, your input is greatly appreciated. It was a tough call. Perhaps I am just too much of a perfectionist to add something I know is less than good.
Imagine being judged on the quality of DMP based on what comes out of the TOSLINK. It sounds worse, it is limited in bandwidth, it does not represent the quality inherent in the device.
I would hang my head the first time someone returned the DMP because it didn’t sound better than their older transport - only to learn they had used the optical out.
“Well, I only used the outputs supplied. Why would you put something on a product you know is inferior?”
We include optical inputs on DACs because many compromised sources have this as their only output choice. I don’t loose sleep over someone complaining their set top box sound isn’t up to par with their transport. That’s a given.
wglenn said
Is that a picture from China or is it Oz?
Here is a tidbit from another thread on a guess as to why the PMT could out shine a server. Just my musings, FWIW.
Having putzed with a few servers and noting differences among them I can see where the DMP may outshine a computer server. In particular, the MAC based servers do not sound as good to my ears than PC based ones. I attribute this to the ability to control the software environment, to some extent, offered by Windows and the BIOS/UEFI environment. Having a superior, purpose built device like the DMP to extract and deliver the goods without the extra “noise” of unrelated software processes (‘housekeeping” if you will) could give you a better result. I found that there was a wasteland between a $1K PC server and the $10K+ range for commercial servers where the perceived differences were minimal or mostly absent despite expensive hardware differences. I have not had the opportunity to try the Aurender W20, though, but at it’s price…My experience is neither extensive nor authoritative and YMMV.
Without knowing if you are comparing network servers, or servers with direct connection over USB/SPDIF/etc., running something like minimserver or JRiver or Roon, it’s difficult to attribute the differences you might hear to any particular cause. I think Paul has well-answered why it may be that a DMP might sound better than a DS/Bridge in his post in this thread, and it is somewhat similar to what you suggest—the purpose-built and more-recently designed DMP has several advantages over a Bridge, but another poster has observed that there may in fact be additional explanations [or compensations] for the difference, i.e., Ethernet-vs.-fiber. I expect to have both my DS/Bridge and my Select II isolated via fiber in the next 48 hours. Looking forward to that experiment. My own trials with a variety of NAS devices [all built by Synology], as well as both dedicated Mac and PC running either RoonServer and/or minimserver, is that the sound I hear through the DAC seems all-but-identical, regardless of the server, so long as it is properly isolated, and each device in the chain is optimized for its task [it’s really not that hard to do on a Mac] has the best available PSU. This approach has made it possible to do some very interesting comparison between the DS/Bridge and the Select II, and the comparison is . . . ear-opening.
Maybe little bit off topic…
I updated TP link media converter power supplies to LPS. PS Closest to bridge 2/DS dac is most important. It even further improved the sound. After that I changed stock power chord of LPS with PS audio AC-5. Another improvement…Network topology is similar to Davidl’s except wireless isolation, the optical one was used to isolate audio part of network. Story continues…For my surprise adding a double conversion UPS (AC-DC-AC) to non audio network part equipments (NASs, switches, firewall, etc…), the sound quality of bridge 2/DS dac stil improved…
All this done the difference compared to no Ethernet tweaks bridge2/DS dac was - like palerider told - ear-opening.
Minimizing the amount of RFI, noise, EMI, is important. Like It was mentioned in the DMP video.
All that said I am wondering why optical Ethernet is not used as connection media as built in solution more in DACs/streamers etc. “Toslink with unlimited (1gbps) audio bandwidth”. It can’t be the cost issue because optical Ethernet module (standardized) to switch was ~50-60€
We have disabled HDCD decoding in DMP to maintain bit perfect performance. Once you allow HDCD decoding you lose the bit perfect nature that we find compelling.
@palerider: I meant to stay vague so as not to get too far off topic. My main point was that by using standard PC hardware I was able to rival the performance of commercial gear from Digibit, Melco and Aurender at a fraction of the price. This was done by trimming Windows and BIOS processes, as well as underclocking/undervolting the CPU and use no esoteric power supplies or cabling. OEM MAC gear, which I favor for everything else, offers very little control over the software environment and doesn’t come close to PC or commercial gear. I meant only to emphasize that, in this aspect, the DMP is able to do away with all the software junk that doesn’t apply to audio and that this is one of the things that may help it best a server, connectivity aside.
wglenn said
@palerider: I meant to stay vague so as not to get too far off topic. My main point was that by using standard PC hardware I was able to rival the performance of commercial gear from Digibit, Melco and Aurender at a fraction of the price. This was done by trimming Windows and BIOS processes, as well as underclocking/undervolting the CPU and use no esoteric power supplies or cabling. OEM MAC gear, which I favor for everything else, offers very little control over the software environment and doesn't come close to PC or commercial gear. I meant only to emphasize that, in this aspect, the DMP is able to do away with all the software junk that doesn't apply to audio and that this is one of the things that may help it best a server, connectivity aside.
Gotcha Makes sense. That was one of the things I achieved with a Baetis Revolution for a while. And I would differ with you on only one very small point, and at that, it's not much of a difference. I think in the Win world, and even perhaps more easily in a true CLI or maybe Linux deployment, you can in fact control your machine almost to a board or chip level. You can control and strip a lot of software processes [but definitely not all that one might like] on a Mac but Apple does not make this very easy, while hardware control is near-impossible.
Still, and this is where I was focused: I am curious whether you are speaking about an actual network device, or just a machine that is speaking directly to the DAC through USB or some other non-network connection. In a direct connection, the differences you no0te can be very dramartic [ergo the Baetis]. But in my experience, when you move over to a network approach, you don’t necessarily eliminate all the machine differences, but you sure do lessen their significance, and I think the work that the DAC is doing moves back to the forefront. This was one of the reasons I had hoped the DMP could also read files over a network [a much more robust Bridge, if you will], but I completely understand why it will not.
Oh yes, I see what you are asking. My server is networked through Bridge II. The commercial servers that I compared to did not all network and USB was used in lieu of this. Your point is well taken as this is really a comparison of a USB server to the PC/Bridge II system and that may put the USB output devices at a disadvantage. The big differences that I found were when it was all put together- software management plus BIOS hardware control. “Big differences” being at audiophile scale, of course.
Paul McGowan said
Thanks Elk and as always, your input is greatly appreciated. It was a tough call. Perhaps I am just too much of a perfectionist to add something I know is less than good.
Imagine being judged on the quality of DMP based on what comes out of the TOSLINK. It sounds worse, it is limited in bandwidth, it does not represent the quality inherent in the device.
I would hang my head the first time someone returned the DMP because it didn’t sound better than their older transport - only to learn they had used the optical out.
“Well, I only used the outputs supplied. Why would you put something on a product you know is inferior?”
We include optical inputs on DACs because many compromised sources have this as their only output choice. I don’t loose sleep over someone complaining their set top box sound isn’t up to par with their transport. That’s a given.
Doesn’t seem to work well in reverse.
Very well reasoned. I think you are right. I would have spent hours obsessing over this decision.
wglenn said
Oh yes, I see what you are asking. My server is networked through Bridge II. The commercial servers that I compared to did not all network and USB was used in lieu of this. Your point is well taken as this is really a comparison of a USB server to the PC/Bridge II system and that may put the USB output devices at a disadvantage. The big differences that I found were when it was all put together- software management plus BIOS hardware control. "Big differences" being at audiophile scale, of course.
Of course! Thanks for the info. That makes sense. FWIW, I just replaced my Mac mini/LANRover combo with a Mivera Superstream, reducing the number of boxes and better isolating file storage and server functions. It has the benefit of delivering quad DSD to the Select and serving all the other DACs on the network, All with Roon. The Superstream is connected to the network with fiber, and I have further Isolated the audio switch with fiber to the main router. Sounds very very good. Black background from which the music just pops. Hoping to qualify for the DMP beta so I can do some comparisons. Haven't fully settled on which discs to use, but I plan on a mix of Blu-ray (prolly Supertramp Crime of the Century and some 2L discs), DVD-A (Piano in a Church, Chris Whitley), SACD (Jazz at the Pawhshop, Brubeck, Lynn Staley, Creedence, Dire Straits), and some Redbook (Shaw's Verdi Requiem, Dire Straits, and who knows what else). I wish I had discs for my Blue Coast recordings but don't.
My experience is neither extensive nor authoritative and YMMV.