alcarp said The NAD M51 DAC has HDMI input and retails at $1500. I wonder how they do it?As with many things, it comes down to money. NAD has far larger distribution, with a much lower per unit cost. NAD is also a bigger brand/company, owned by Lenbrook Group which also owns PSB.
I can appreciate this. I know that EC also have some complaints about licensing issues (pricing and certification), however EC is not for the masses either (limited sales volume potential).
Electrocompaniet is not mainstream like Sony, but is a much larger company than PS Audio. (And, as a side note, Electrocompaniet amps are commonly found in studios.)
More significantly however, HDMI is on their video/analog products. These must include HDMI to be video players, just as a CD player must contain analog outs and a CD transport must include digital outputs.
If HDMI audio was inexpensive and easy to add, PS Audio certainly would do so. They are a pretty bright bunch. 
Frode saidvortecjr saidI would think because of cost, audio quality, complexity and so on. HDMI support is not built into the DAC chips....Are you sure about this? It doesn’t match up with my reading (Cary):
http://www.cirrus.com/jp/pubs/proBulletin/CS49700_PB.pdf
http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1796.pdf
Also, I understand that SACD is proprietary Sony, watermarked and licenced, but is transport of native DSD between devices considered the same and thus have the same restrictions?
I guess HDCP applies to non-audio, so unless the HDMI port doesn’t pass video the missing EDID implementation should not pose a problem.
Edit;
I agree that DAC chips doesn’t support any physical HDMI ports, just the format.
So you will need an interface card of some kind that many brands support already.
The CS49700 is only the decoder section and not a DAC with an HDMI input. Your looking at it wrong and you may have missed the fact that it only supports SACD because it decimates it. Also, no one is going to dispute the existents of these kinds of chips because they are used in receivers and processors. Anyway, let’s stay on topic.
Jesus R
Ok.
At least is says DSD in the display when I hook up the HDMI cable.
When you say that it decimates the SACD, I assume that the perceived sound quality is compromised (not native DSD)?
Is decimation a HDMI audio issue or an issue related to the receiving decoding chip?
Various chips which “support” SACD/DSD, such as the the Wolfson 8740 DAC chip, are not SACD capable. Instead, they decimate DSD to PCM. The chip then plays the resulting PCM. The unit recognizes the DSD datastream so it displays “DSD,” but it is not decoding it as DSD, but rather as PCM.
Whether this compromises the sound depends on how well the chip does its job and the surrounding circuitry.
This is a chip issue, not an HDMI audio issue.
vortecjr saidPaul McGowan said Now that would be interesting ...It would really interesting if it does multichannel…
Jesus R
As far as I know it does. I have been using Vanity Boards for a while (I have a 93HD and a 103D Lite), and they output MCH over 4 x S/PDIF. Don’t see why the DoP feaure would be any different.
One not insignificant catch. I have used the Vanity board with a number of DACs and they all worked fine, but not with the DirectStream. For some reason, I do not get a handshake. This is with the 103D Lite board. I have not tried with the HD board.
So DS owners verify the DS works with the 103 HD board, before committing to anything. I for one am not getting my money back on the 103 Lite because it does not work with DS. I’m shit out of luck as they say.
I know I guy who owns Directstream and Vanity 103HD. I try to check with him if it works. Stay tuned.
edorr,
Appreciate the cautionary advice and pursuit of another’s experience for us.
My vanity 103hd owning buddy canceled his order for direct stream, so no new information. I can try my vanity 93hd board once the player is back for the ship, but no guarantees the 103hd will work with ds over DoP without trying first.
edorr saidAs far as I know it does. I have been using Vanity Boards for a while (I have a 93HD and a 103D Lite), and they output MCH over 4 x S/PDIF. Don’t see why the DoP feaure would be any different.
One not insignificant catch. I have used the Vanity board with a number of DACs and they all worked fine, but not with the DirectStream. For some reason, I do not get a handshake. This is with the 103D Lite board. I have not tried with the HD board.
I haven’t been reading the links associated with this thread carefully, so I thought I’d just ask.
RE: “For some reason, I do not get a handshake.” Was the Vanity 103D Lite board hooked to the DS with USB?
No. The vanity board has 4 x S/PDIF coax outputs only. I connected Vanity to a DS and got no signal. Same output worked fine on the MSB and NAD m51 DAC I was using a the time.
Ah, the word handshake confused me - it implies that the DS needed to communicate back and only the USB or bridge have that capability.
One of the things we fixed in FPGA version 0.61 (6115) was a problem receiving some S/PDIF signals. If you weren’t using the newer FPGA code, it might make a difference.
Good to know. I just upgraded firmware last week, so I’ll try the Vanity board again.
It would be really practical for the board to work with DS, because I am running my Satellite Receiver HDMI into the Oppo, which then acts as an HDMI to 4 x S/PDIF converter for the audio stream. I used to run these S/PIFS outputs into 3 DACS, but with the DS this no longer works.
Just tried - still no joy with the vanity board. The standard stereo coax on the Oppo works just fine…
Thanks for checking. You mention again stereo. Is the Vanity board doing something more than stereo over the coax? If so, it’s not supported. If not it would be nice to see why it and the DS aren’t working together. How are they failing? I think you said that there doesn’t appear to be a connection at all, but just in case: Is there no sound? Is the sound garbled? Does the DS display show the correct sample rate and bit depth or is it wrong in some consistent way?
The vanity board outputs 4 x stereo over S/PDIF: L/R, C/LFE, etc. The Vanity Lite board basically replaced the Oppo analog board and passes through the digital signal that feeds the original analog board to the RCA jacks. The VanityHD board adds a lot of processing; reclocking PCM->DSD conversion and now also DoP.
With my vanity lite board, none of the 4 x S/PDIF works with the DS. The DS display shows no sample rate nor bit depth. If I connect the Oppo with its own coax digital stereo the DS works just fine, so something happens with the vanity board that makes it not work with the DS. This is peculiar, because the Lite version of the board is just a pass-through with minimal processing.
I suspect if you get the HD board to works with the DS, you can play a MCH SACD and run the coaxes into a stack of DS DACs and play native DSD in MCH mode!
Thanks for the clarification. All problems we’ve had with weak or distorted S/PDIF data still showed the correct info (often intermittently) and mostly would have sound (tho often garbled or hissy). There must be something that’s more than a little different than the DS is expecting.
For a test do you have the option of changing the sample rate? If so does any sample rate work? Otherwise I guess well have to talk to the designer of the Vanity boards or get one to see what’s going wrong between them and the DS. Sorry if you already answered this, but did you happen to try it with the PWD?
Never tried with the PWD. I still need to try DS with my Vanity93 HD board. If you are willing to do some troubleshooting, I may be able to send you my 103D Vanity Lite. Keep in mind though, that for an application with the DS, most prospective users will want the HD board, which can do DoP.
I’m more than happy to see what I can find - especially if the HD has the same problem as the Lite. It would be good to get to the bottom of this.
I have received a response from Audiopraise to my inquiry about compatibility with the Direct Stream.
They say they will be working with PS Audio engineering.
"Please give us a couple weeks to arrange that and
get a feedback from PS Audio. They are interested in feeding DS with DoP
from the Vanity board as well. Will keep you updated."