Is this still a real issue? I have a DSJ on the way. Any DSJ users have similar experiences? Thanks
There are threads about the noise floor (see below). Most people don’t have a problem. Most that did chose to address it with one or more of the recommendations. I’m sure some don’t wait until their unit is broken in before making up their minds. This is expected - but the DSs take longer than most pieces of kit to break in.
My most recent post on this topic:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/fpga-improvements-in-redcloud/4482/56
In this thread:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/dsd-dac-very-faint-high-frequency-noise/2476/8
An older DS Jr post - Since then Huron lowered ultrasonic noise:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/from-junior-high-frequency-noise/3980/6
I had the very same feelings you are experiencing just now when I bought my DS in January 2015. The dac the DS replaced ( Linn Klimax DS ) was eerily quite whereas the DS hissed… But the music was so much better with DS I couldn’t bear to be without it . I found I couldn’t hear any extraneous noise when the music was playing even at very low levels so I stuck with the DS. But, I couldn’t escape listening to this hissing sound when the music wasn’t playing and, it annoyed me, mainly because my Linn DAC was silent. I even went as far as building attenuation ( -10dB ) into the phono plugs at the power amp inputs as I was only using the DS volume. I found with my system the -20dB was too much, the music lacked clarity, separation, etc. What I eventually discovered was that I had jumped the gun; the DS requires a long burn-in which in my case took 6 weeks … I then swapped the attenuated interconnects for the same make of cable but balanced and this was a big improvement. The addition of the BHK preamp was another ‘significant improvement’ to the DS noise floor and increased musicality albeit at a cost…
The reason I say 6 weeks for the DS to burn-in: I bought a second DS and straight from get - go it was lacking musicality and quite frankly it sounded dire compared to my first bought DS which was 18 months old at this time… DS2 changed / improved dramatically after a week of 24/7 playing but it went through a cycle of a few good days followed by a few bad days ( it wasn’t me imagining this - because - I simply switched to my 18 month dac which was better in everyway and drawing me into the music which the new DS wasn’t ) It eventually merged with it’s 18 month older brother and I couldn’t tell them apart. One of the DS’s suffered from a bad virus picked up during the many Torreys beta trials whereby I had to rip out the internals and fit a new kit… It was the same scenario again burning -in for weeks before it finally settled… Same situation with new firmware: I experience this burn -in phenomenon because I never install the latest firmware to both dacs at the same time – but it never takes weeks just a week or thereabouts !
The DS is a wonderful dac and was a catalyst for me and I now own all PSA equipment.
Stick with it… It will sound much better if you play it 24/7 for a week…
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Ted and Dirk. Thank you for your insights. I’ll burn in my dac before making any conclusions.
Thanks for the advice and sharing your insights re DS, especially to Dirk. Ted’s reply that most people don’t have a problem with the hiss, and only some do, possibly connotes that the hissing units might somehow be off specs, unless he meant varying degrees of users’ sensitivity to hear or the equipment’s capability to reproduce the noise. Hissing was pretty common in old days, but most of the contemporary gear from reputable brands tends to be hiss free. Therefore, I had concerns upon the initial listening whether the unit I received was within the specs when I heard the hiss from the listening position and blurriness in reproduction. Hope the musicality improves over time, and the fairly high noise floor / hiss appears common to all DS units. Implementing Dirk’s advice, I discovered that the noise floor and hiss indeed decrease when the DS signal is fed to a preamp at 100% DS volume, rather than directly to the power amp over XLR; in my case, with DS connected to Krell Phantom, both powered by Shunyata Triton v. 3.
My reply (especially the posts I referred you to) was intended to not blame people’s systems, ears, etc. but instead was to describe where the noise comes from, why it’s there and, depending on your equipment, several ways of possibly mitigating it if it’s a problem.
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Hi Ted,
One question on the noise in people’s systems resulting from the PS Audio DACs. In your opinion, is it better to live with the noise without using the 20dB attenuation and/or adding a pre-amp because of the benefits at this point? Or is it better to forego the noise using one of those methods you mentioned to reduce the noise? I guess what I’m asking…is one truly better than the other? Does one sacrifice one thing in favor for the other like, for example, a lower noise floor but less detail? Or is this not the case?
It depends on what you might mean by “truly better”. If the noise bothers you then getting rid of it may matter more to you than anything else. It might not matter at all to someone else. If the 20dB attenuator still allows you to listen at the volume you want to listen then there’s nothing wrong with using it. Some systems will sound better with a preamp regardless of using the 20 dB attenuator, inline attenuators, balanced vs. unbalanced interconnects, etc. IMO people should have a good preamp in their systems and if with certain component mixes things sound better without it fine. But very few people set up and system and never change it again - most will find that a preamp will help with some setups.
Noise definitely can mask detail so running a DS with a low DS volume setting can mask detail. The purpose of the 20dB attenuator, inline attenuators, a preamp, etc. is to allow you to use a higher volume setting on the DS to get the best S/N for the system as a whole.
Yes, better does indeed seem quite subjective in this hobby. I might have to just play with it a bit and see what the best mix/balance is with the fewest compromise on my tastes.
I’ll put the NAD 326bee into the mix here soon strictly as a preamp and see what it does to the sound. At least it will give me an idea what’s going on and what might/might now work best. Like I related in my other reply this almost seems inevitable and is making more sense now. Thank you again for walking me through this… Good evening!
Dear Ted,
I own the DSD Snr and I have a slight hiss at the listening position.
I am running balanced cables from the DS to my preamp and single ended cables from preamp to monoblocs.
I tried a Placette RVC and a Townshend Allegri between preamp and monoblocs, and I also tried the attenuator of the DS, but in my system, they reduce the SQ.
Speakers are 90 dB efficient and monoblocs provide 32 dB in balanced mode.
If I use the DS between 90 and 100, with my preamp at or below 9 o’clock, the hiss is the lowest, but still there, and I am not sure my preamp is delivering it’s best at such low levels.
Questions :
1/ any other ideas to get rid of the hiss?
2/ will the next DS release reduce it?
3/ will the TSS have less than the DS Snr?
Thank you for your help.
Philippe
Phillips,
Please provide more detail as to the specific components you are using and how they are connected in order for any useful advice to be offered. Hiss at the level you are describing is not inherent in the DS so my guess is something else is the culprit.
Hi Jeff,
The DS is fed by the dmp and a Lumin U1.
Preamp is a Plinius Tautoro.
Monoblocs are bridged Plinius SA 103s.
Speakers : B&W 800D2s
I don’t get the hiss from the other source connected to the preamp, a cheap Cambridge Audio tuner.
Thank you for your help.
Philippe
At first glance, it would seem you have a straightforward mismatch of components. Your amp provides unusually high gain, your speakers are high sensitivity and the DS DAC has a relatively high noise floor compared to other modern components. You need some significant analog attenuation in the chain and that’s going to come at a sonic cost.
I sympathise with you re the SQ impact of the built-in attenuator. It’s not quite transparent to my ears either, but if I turn it off the background hiss becomes noticeable even in my system which has less gain in the power amp as well as less sensitive speakers than yours.
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My suggestions are in posts such as the one above:
The next DS may lower it a little, but probably not by more than a few dB. The attenuator will have less of an effect on the sound quality.
The TSS will have a lower noise floor: I’m aiming for about 9dB.
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Thank you Ted
I hope this will help people in similar situations, i.e. hiss from the DSD Snr dac due to high gain amps and high efficiency speakers.
I found a great solution : the Placette RVC between preamp and amp(s) is completely transparent and solves the hiss issue.
It is also great as a replacement for the preamp, although I slightly preferred my Plinius Tautoro (which costs a lot more).
Guy Hammel at Placette is a pleasure to work with, and his cables are excellent, competitive even with Wireworld platinum.
No wonder this device got a Stereophile class A rating.
Well deserved.
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Thank you @dvorak for a very good evaluation of the issue.
I forgot to say, by the way, that Placette Audio offers a 30 day free trial, like PS Audio.
I have no affiliation with Placette, I just want to help people with a hiss issue.
The Placette RVC is not cheap, at 1295 USD plus shipping, but in my system, it’s the only device that solved the hiss issue without negative SQ impact.
On the contrary, I am getting better sound, probably because I can now use the full range of volume of my preamp, and the hiss is not masking low level details.
I tried cheap inline Rothwell attenuators before the monoblocs but in my system, that killed the sound.
I also tried a Townshend Allegri +, which was very good too, but I slightly preferred the Placette.
In my system it is more transparent than the DS attenuator.
I hope this will help people in similar situations, i.e. hiss from the DSD Snr dac due to high gain amps and high efficiency speakers.
I found a great solution, at least in my system : the Placette RVC between preamp and amp(s) is completely transparent and solves the hiss issue.
It is also great as a replacement for the preamp, although I slightly preferred my Plinius Tautoro (which costs a lot more).
Guy Hammel at Placette is a pleasure to work with, and his cables are excellent, competitive even with Wireworld platinum.
No wonder this device got a Stereophile class A rating.
Well deserved.
Placette Audio offers a 30 day free trial, like PS Audio.
I have no affiliation with Placette, I just want to help people with a hiss issue.
The Placette RVC is not cheap, at 1295 USD plus shipping, but in my system, it’s the only device that solved the hiss issue without negative SQ impact.
On the contrary, I am getting better sound, probably because I can now use the full range of volume of my preamp, and the hiss is not masking low level details.
I tried cheap inline Rothwell attenuators before the monoblocs but in my system, that killed the sound.
I also tried a Townshend Allegri +, which was very good too, but I slightly preferred the Placette.
In my system it is more transparent than the DS attenuator.
My hiss his was resolved by adding 10dB whirlwind attenuators at the amplifier inputs. I’m also using the 20dB attenuator on the DSDac. No drop in SQ.
My system is DSD, BHK pre, BHK 300s, P20, DSMP, Music Vault server/Roon core, Auralic Aries G2 streamer. Speakers are 97dB/w/m PBN M2!5.