Another thought was the Emerald Physics EP 2.8. Or the new Spatial Audio X2. I was not blown away when I heard a Focal Spora N3 pair. They were ok, not no where near full range.
Another one to consider is the Acoustic Zen Cresendo. Similar in price to the M-L Ren 15a’s
http://www.acousticzen.com/products/loudspeakers/floorstanding
I heard a pair of these at a Colorado Audio Society meeting and they were simply awesome. Big sweet spot and an overall impressive speaker. If I were to replace my Summit X’s, they would definitely be on the short list to seriously audition…
Another thought regarding my experience with Martin-Logans - it seems that the size of the sweet spot increases with panel size. Based on what I have heard, the 15a’s have a significantly larger sweet spot that my Summit X’s.
All my opinion of course…
You need to listen to the 15a, Maggie 20.7, b&w 802 D3. Here is what I think that does for you. You hear the ML Hybrid of stat and cone, the planar bass and mid warmth of the Maggie, and the dynamics of a box cone in the B&W. All 3 are excellent but what you prefer and what your room can hold - well I can’t speak to that. I disagree with the idea that the stat won’t go loud. The MLs definitely will. If you can hear these kind of offerings - you will definitely know where your tastes lie.
Let me me tell you what I did. I listened to Wilsons, sonus faber strads, ML Summit X, B&W 802 D2, magnepan 3.7/20.7. I ended up with the 20.7. Why? I really like planar bass and the 20.7 has enough to keep me happy. I am also a soundstage freak. Plus I thought the ribbon tweeter was phenomenal. I also liked the size of the soundstage - height/width and non exaggerated. They just ‘spoke to me’ and were at the very top of my price range really. Plus I have the room for them 17x30
Saying all of that - the other speakers sounded great as well.
Roger all of that - in spades.
timm’s post raises some key considerations.
These were the exact three speakers on my finalist list. Having owned Maggies, IMHO that ribbon tweeter is the best in the business. Fantastic line source. For me, it ultimately came down to the Summit X and the Maggie 20.7’s, and in a perfect world, I would own them both 
.
My situation was that we were planning a cross-country move within a year or two, and I had no idea what kind of room I would end up with. Both speakers have their strong points, but the Maggies are much less efficient and therefore require robust power. My amps have the grunt, but the “realism,” if you will, of the 20.7’s increases with volume, so you end up pushing a lot of energy into your room. I had to play them 4 - 6 db louder than the M-L’s for me to get the same “ju ne sais quoi” out of them. Hence, the bigger the room, the better. timms space is perfect. The Summit X’s were smaller, lighter, and with built-in bass adjustments, so somewhat more flexible. Of course, this is before M-L released their updated line. Going from memory, I think the Ren 15a’s capture the best of both the Summit X and 20.7’s , but the proof is in the listening with your own set of ears.
darrenv1070, my reco would be to invest in a trip to Wilmington, DE and visit Overture AV, although there may be dealers with a large enough inventory to demo closer to you. I was able to listen to all three of these speakers (and other high-end contenders including Focal, Avalon,and Magico) in controlled conditions (i.e. same front end and media) in what is probably the best listening room I’ve ever encountered. Too much fun! And Delaware has no sales tax. Just sayin . . . You can PM me for a contact, if you want.
The Martin Logan I was considering were the Renassance 15a, or the PSB Image T3. Yes different.
Definitely different. I’ve not heard the PSB line, but the new Martin-Logans (including the 15a’s) have built in room correction, and from what I’ve heard in the RMAF hotel rooms it really, really works. The bass I heard from these things is easily as good or better than any comparably priced multirange dynamic design.
Audition all you can. The more you hear, the more you know.
I am a bit concerned about people mentioning that after elevated volume listening periods that the Martin panels got damaged. I am puzzled at to how this happens? Where they over driven? My amp is a BHK 250.
darren - Not sure if ML folks are saying that - If you’re thinking of what I wrote, it was about Quad ESLs, which if you drive the panel too hard, can cause it to contact the stators and arc, which can burn a hole in it. Then the film panel has to be replaced.
Oh ok. I can get a great deal on a ML Renaissance 15a pair if I wanted. So I am planning to listen to a few more next week.
Earlier electrostat designs (like the Quads and others) were prone to arcing if overdriven. Although any transducer can be overdriven to the point of failure, M-L’s and Sanders are pretty bulletproof in that regard and will play as loud as you want.
Darrenv1070, we have similar musical taste. Love Paradigm’s Personas myself after going through many others including B&Ws, GoldenEars, Focals, Neats, Harbeths, Spendors and Revels. Go with whichever speakers your ears and gut tell you are best. Lastly, Paul’s advice on a pair of subs is highly recommended.
Certainly no substitute for listening, especially when it comes to speakers. We all hear differently, both measurably and by exposure/training, etc.
Personally I have never heard a ML I liked (apologies, ML fans!). Both in peoples homes and at shows. Including recent Axpona showings of the Big 'uns that many were raving about - made me want to run from the room (and I sat in the sweet spot for a while). I also usually find Focals and B&Ws overly bright. But that’s me and my hearing. Yours is the only opinion that matters.
What sort of surprises me is how it seems like there’s more general agreement about what a good TV picture looks like than audio. Though I’m sure if you ask videophiles, they would have more diverse opinions. I’m a videographer for a living, so when I walk into a TV store, NONE of the TVs look good, because they’re all set up to compete with each other in terms of brightness and contrast. A properly calibrated TV or monitor would literally seem pale in comparison. I feel like that’s the sort of thing that’s going on at shows and in showrooms a lot with audio - make it “impressive” - “ooo, listen to all that detail I never noticed before…”
I did find the Focal Sopra N2 to be less than impressive. Bright, and not much bass.
I am good in the bass department. I run a JL Audio F113v2 pair from a JL Audio CR-1 sub controler from my BHK preamp. Killer control, and the CR-1 didn’t effect sound from BHK at all from what I heard.
Let me say. I also OWN the ML Odysseys. The concept of arcing or not getting loud is a completely foreign concept to this brand. The 15a is 2 designs up from mine. I suspect they are incredible. What led me to the mags was what I thought would drive me away - which was the bass. Planar bass is pretty sweet if you get a panel large enough. Saying that, I would never disparage anyone from getting a 15a. :). I would love to hear them some day.
And yes what Howard said is true . I would bet the Maggie’s are the most room sensitive speaker out there. I had a lot of flexibility for them. That is good and bad. Good because it gives you a lot of flexibility to Taylor the sound just based on movement of the speaker. Bad because if you can’t get it right in your room then results are sub-optimal. Good because the bass is a planar as is the rest of the speaker so it lends itself to realism. Bad because it isn’t chest thumping bass. You just gotta listen. If you are thinking about the 15a - you gotta listen to the mags at least out of curiosity and I do think Overture has them both.
Thank you for all the info and insight. Overture is over 5 hours drive for me so that’s too far.There maybe a dealer near Boston. Waltham ( Goodwin )? I will see what they sell.
Due to budget and impatience I decided to pick up a PBS Imagine T3 pair. Should arrive early next week. Will post my feelings once set up and broken in a bit. Good reviews tho. Should be a decent upgrade to my Def Tech Mythos ST-L I am currently using?
I used to own quad esl63’s with the full Crosby mod. I loved them but as other have found the panels break and I didn’t feel like continued expensive repairs.
If I were to consider a stat speaker today it would be a SoundLab. They put every other stat I’ve heard to shame, in dynamics as well. I’ve heard various models and sizes over the years and have always been impressed.
There is a brand new series that is smaller, that Is supposed to be amazing.
I wish I had a dedicated room to add a pair. perhaps someday I will.
No offense to anyone here but at several shows I have heard Martin logans presented by the factory. I’ve heard The neolith and another new hybrid in about the $20k range. I am always shocked that They think it sounds good. A friend identified problems in less than 30 seconds and wanted to leave the room immediately.
I heard Sanders in a less than ideal situation at a show at was not impressed.
Again - anyone considering stats (that have they space to let a dipole design like that breath - placed well away from the walls) fly if necessary to a dealer to hear soundlabs. It’s a shame they are not shown more.
My current speakers - TAD’s - designed by Andrew Jones who loves and own quads bear a bit of a sonic resemblance.
I’ve even added electrostatic super tweeters on top- so I feel like I have a bit of that great stat sound quality and with the BHK 300’s - they sound better than any other amp I’ve had on them.
Emailists, I have no doubt the Soundlabs are awesome and would love to listen to a pair. But I think if you are going to make determinations of a speaker’s quality based on show conditions, then you are going to be wrong. A lot.
Electrostats are highly sensitive to room and setup. They actually aren’t as sensitive to near sidewalls as they are to distance from the wall behind them. Martin Logan’s do best, in my experience, about five to six feet out from the wall behind them, with diffuser panels on that wall to diffuse the rear wave of the speaker. The room also needs a fair amount of bass trapping to get the best sound out of the hybrid speaker’s woofers. Set up correctly, in a good well-treated room, driven with quality upstream components, they are an amazing speaker.
Damit, there is a Soundlab dealer in CT, about 1.5 hours from me. I’ll swing by on Wednesday! Too bad I ordered up the PSB’s so quick! LOL. No maybe down the road, as the Soundlab’s retail price past my current budget. I upgraded a lot of my gear this year. It’s gotta wait now until summer!
Avadia saidElectrostats are highly sensitive to room and setup. … Martin Logan’s do best, in my experience, about five to six feet out from the wall behind them, with diffuser panels on that wall to diffuse the rear wave of the speaker. The room also needs a fair amount of bass trapping to get the best sound out of the hybrid speaker’s woofers. Set up correctly, in a good well-treated room, driven with quality upstream components, they are an amazing speaker.
Yep, agreed! This year’s RMAF was the first show where I actually liked what I heard out of ML’s show demonstrations. I have owned a pair of Summit X’s for a little over three years and have heard them in an extremely well designed listening room at Overture AV, and in 4 residential settings as I moved around prior to retirement. In each case, different room = different speaker. And not just a little bit different, either. Waaaay different. With an indifferent setup, they can be truly horrible. If I hadn’t heard them first at Overture, I would have had no idea what they were capable of and would not have touched them with a 10 foot barge pole.
That said, they are not perfect, and there are trade-offs. There are designs that can be plopped into a room with less thought to setup, but those would have cost me multiples of what the M-L’s were going for. Yes, they can be a bit fiddly to set up, but sheer exasperation lead me to the discovery of Room EQ Wizard (www.roomeqwizard.com), and purveyors of reasonably priced room treatments (GIK and ATS Acoustics). My pair has “taught” me more about room acoustics than I could ever have imagined as I worked to get them sounding like the showroom.