As an owner of a P20 and two P15s, I appreciate this reply. Thanks
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Novelette? Theyāre turning into grande oeuvres. And I used to book time off work to study Galenās posts. Personally I prefer hors dāoeuvres.
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Man, this thread is a doozy.
@Shazb0t, I canāt keep up with you and @rower30 in your point-by-point discussion, but Iāll make just a couple of quick statements and then ask you a couple of questions.
First, I donāt know if youāre aware that several of the Iconoclast interconnects (designed by Galen) use the same basic geometry, measure virtually identically, but differ in the type of copper used as conductors. And to confirm your fears, they do sound different.
Second, Galenās arguments about the null tester are much more convincing than your own. Wishing that the null tester could perfectly identify measured electrical differences that influence sound quality in real systems under load does not make it so. Over the years, Iāve learned that adding circuits and connectors to a system cannot be assumed to be neutral in terms of either measurements or sound quality.
Now the questions:
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Have you ever compared the sound of two interconnects or speaker cables in your own audio system? Did you hear any differences? How did you control for expectation bias - either expecting no difference or expecting to hear a difference?
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Do you have any opinions on a paper published last year in the Journal of the AES by Milind Kunchur, a professor of physics at the U. of South Carolina? The title is āCable pathways between audio components can affect perceived sound quality.ā The study isnāt the last word on interconnect cable quality and topology (balanced vs. single-ended), but it uses double-blind listening tests and eliminates the problems inherent in the A-B-X paradigm. How each cable handled noise appeared to be one of the most likely reasons for subjects being able to identify differences in sound quality between the cables. (A pdf of the paper is available on Prof. Kunchurās university website.)
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You guys have a valid point. Iām going to take a break for a few days, haha. Honestly the next thing that Iām interested in here is the new speakers getting on a Klippel. I saw Erin say PS Audio offered a tower to him for measurement but he had to decline due to it being too large and hard to accomdate on his NFS. He also said PSA was sending it to some other third party. Something interesting to look forward to! Enjoy your compelling data when you turn on your stereo. Liked that one!
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So you donāt care how the speaker sounds only how it measures?
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Well I was just listening to a track that is a linguistic analogy of audio measurements, in that you can take the same four letters A M I R, look the same, add up the same, and get something completely different. The gorgeous Melody. Thatās how you do a video. And it cannot fail to cheer you up.
Both would be cool, but I donāt know that Iāll be able to personally hear one anytime soon.
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With the 30 day money back guaranty you could if it will fit into your room. Just because a speaker āmeasures wellā doesnāt mean you will like it especially in your room. Iāve disposed of several pairs over the years that measured well with rave reviews that didnāt work out and none of them let me just send them back.
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I like to thank Galen, tak1313, Shazb0t and other for a their contribution. At least nice to see people with technical expertise and know-how having a civilized conversation at a high level instead of the eventually polarized views and bad behavior that so often comes to surface among people that really donāt understand the subject matter - which I believe to be most people.
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@Shazb0t A piano, sax, coronet, trombone and a bassoon play the same A3 (220 Hz) at the same amplitude. In the tests you provided above they would all appear the same, yet no one would argue that they sound the same.
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The answer is of course well known, in that we are also hearing the harmonics and overtones that arise by virtue of the differing means of sound propagation and the material and density of those materials. For example, a JS Bach Passion I heard live a few weeks ago features three different types of oboe, one of them almost semi-cicular. At the time brass instruments were fairly new, so there was still a wider range of woodwind for tonal colour.
Of course we listen to the same symphonies with the same notes played on modern and period instruments, the sound is completely different.
This is why the who idea of basing an audio decision entirely on measuring single generated frequencies seems so unfathomably pointless and misguided, if not a little stupid.
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I disagree/no needā¦
I, for one, think the back and forth b/t you and Galen is starting to shed some light into the darkness of misunderstanding and miscommunication that seems to always overshadow this topic and its variants.
One critical comment I would offer is that both of you tend to cover too much ground and wander away from a particular topic of discussion. More focus on a single aspect or two of the subject matter will garner more mutual understanding and benefit those on the sidelines consuming the posts more.
This is a nuanced technical and aesthetic topic/hobby and it deserves some erudite discussion - from both perspectives. If we (yāall) can focus on an element of discussion a bit more ā to the point of zeroing in on where oneās perspectives diverges, I think we will all be the better for it.
FWIW.
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Hereās a good example of something that seems like it might true, and which if it actually were would invalidate my position. But the truth is that no, they would not measure the same. Instruments playing the same note do NOT measure the same. They do not play a single note when played, but actually a mixture of frequencies and differences in harmonics. This is measurable and explains why they do not sound the same.
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As we briefly discussed in our messages, I think this study is interesting as it specifically tries to show interconnect cables can sound differently by showing that measurable properties in the cables, which the math and audio science tell us could be audible depending on setup, actually are when setup so that they should be. Despite the potentially misleading title, the study actually verifies how measurable differences in cables can and do equate to measureable and audibile results in the system output during controlled testing. It doesnāt prove the opposite though. Worth the read.
But I said I would take a break and here we are again. Iām a monster.
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@Shazb0t A Strobe-O-Scope (frequency response meter) doesnāt care what instrument is played through it, only itās frequency and amplitude. (the measurement graph above)
I guess Iām not following your logic. So if we can establish that instruments when playing a āsingleā note actually output multiple harmonics and the graphs above cover the full audible frequency band and include harmonic distortion, why do you think that a difference in those wouldnāt show up when directly measured? My position is that they absolutely would.
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Cheeezum. Take a one day break on a thread andā¦
Iām replying to this old post because thatās where the little red line said I left offā¦
I, for one, did not realize @rower30 was THAT Galen. When he posted after my post about the Winer video, I thought, āHmmm, this guy really knows his stuff - he must REALLY like cables. And look, his name is Galen too.ā
Much respect, Mr. Gareis.
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@Shazb0t A spectrogram would be required, not a frequency sweep.
A frequency response meter, such as an instrument tuner, displays only the fundamental pitch of the instrument to which it is listening. The meter is ignoring all of the harmonic frequencies which make up the timbre of the instrument.
Thus, while the tuner will display the same frequency when a flute or a trumpet play the same pitch, it does so by ignoring all of the harmonic information which differs with each instrument.
Here is an example of the differing harmonics of a flute and a violin. The differing strengths of the various harmonics define the timbre of each instrument and explains why they sound different.
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