No, this is not correct, as you surmise. In fact it would be rare for an HDTT release to come from a master tape (however one may define that, but let’s not get into that can of worms). It may come from a 15ips dub of the master (e.g., a safety or “protection copy” tape), or it may come from a one-to-one dub of a production master. In some instances, I suspect, but Bob has not confirmed, that he has obtained access to “COURTESY or ENGINEER’S COPIES (usually Second to Fourth Generation) made from low generation “program source tapes” for personal or inter-corporate use and which were often shared among professionals in the music and audio technology fields. Many of these fine tapes have entered circulation from the liquidated estates of recording engineers, music producers and executives.” (as defined in this this excellent article about the hierarchy of tape generations by Harold Tichenor, a tape collector and archivist, published recently in Positive Feedback, here).
For sure a number of his releases come from “BROADCAST MASTER or Program or Concert tapes which are usually Third Generation and are generally non-studio live venue concert recordings made for radio broadcast and exchanged among broadcast networks internationally, with one master made for each country in the exchange program.” (Again quoting the Harold Tichenor article cited above.) An example of these would be the Judy Garland tapes released in 2022.
But the vast majority of HDTT’s releases come from commercially released 2-track and 4-track tapes – just very good sounding ones. For 1950s and 1960s jazz, these commercially sold 15ips tapes often can be one-to-one real time speed transfers from a production master, gang produced to be sure but still real time one-to-one transfers. According to some tape collectors, it is really surprising how little information is lost in a 15ips transfer from one tape generation to the next (but I can’t personally speak to this).
Exceptions where these are direct dubs of the master tape coming from International Phonograph, Inc. (IPI) tapes where John Horwath has made the DSD256 transfer himself from his master tapes, the Klipsch Tapes, or the Desmar Record recordings where an associate of Bob’s ended up owning their catalog of master tapes which they are working through now. Example: the complete Schubert Works for Cello & Piano with Nathaniel Rosen and Doris Stevenson (here), which is quite wonderful by the way.
I personally just remember copies of cassettes, which were really bad then
But R2R copies I just know from comparing audiophile LP’s, one made from a dub, the other from the master (AP Love Supreme on 33 and 45 RPM, out of the cool from Alto vs. AP and more). There the difference of one tape generation is definitely noticeable, not only by a less open top end.
Either I am misunderstanding what you compared and are reporting, or you misunderstood my query.
Looking at the site it appears that the “best” disc offered for purchase for HDTT releases are Gold CDs with “Redbook” resolution (standard CDs that is). What I was wondering is whether their CD releases (transfers?) offer anything sonically that would subjectively be considered better than other CDs out there of the same recording.
Make sense…?
Thanks for the response and your efforts in this regard, by the way.
@jazznut , I really appreciate your enthusiasm for getting the best vinyl playback possible. However, my experience suggests one needs to be careful about the conclusions you’re drawing. I’ve listened to vinyl for over 40 years, was a fanatic about vinyl playback quality, and owned most of the audiophile label vinyl reissues and new issues over those years.
In my experience, if we are not comparing the work of the same cutting engineer and that cutting engineer using the same equipment at the cutting lathe, the variations in cutting engineer and the equipment used to cut the lacquer (solid state, tube, what cutterhead, what cabling) will simply overwhelm the differences about whether that tape used in cutting the lacquer was this generation or that generation tape. And this doesn’t begin to cover differences in pressing plants, vinyl formulations, etc, etc, etc. All of which make a sonic difference. And then when you toss in 33 RPM versus 45 RPM, the difference between those formats will also completely drown the difference in generation of tape. In summary, all of these other variations in the cutting and manufacture of an LP simply dwarf differences in generation of tape and must be controlled to make the kind of assessment you are attempting.
But, these are just my thoughts based on my experience collecting and listening to vinyl over all that time.
Hi @scotte1, yes, I think I am understanding your question. The Redbook CD resolution will be the same, clearly. So my understanding of your question is whether the difference from HDTT’s source tape and the care/quality with which HDTT has transferred the analog to digital and then mastered their CD result in a better sounding CD from HDTT than from other CDs out there.
Do I have your question correctly?
If so, since I’ve never heard an HDTT CD, I was attempting to offer some information through inference by comparing the HDTT 24-96 file (the closest resolution to Redbook CD that I can download) to a standard Redbook CD file. This is a comparison of apples to oranges for sure! But is there any inference that can be drawn and applied toward what might expect to hear between the CDs? That is what I was seeking to anser.
My conclusion was that I believe we might find that HDTT’s CD of this particular album will sound better than the commercial CD. What I hear in the HDTT 24-96 file by comparison to the CD is something that I think would continue to apply even as that 24-96 file is further down-sampled to 16-44. Accordingly, the inference I’m making from this is that the HDTT CD may very likely sound better than other CDs out there. Again, no absolutes here - just making an inference and educated guess. Will this same sonic difference be apparent with some other album? I don’t know and can’t offer a guess about that. We all know that there are clearly differences among various CDs coming from different mastering/production houses. To really know, one would have to just take a chance and make an order.
If you ever take the plunge and get an HDTT CD for listening, I will be interested to learn what you hear.
I’ll probably do just that. Do you have a hands-down famous jazz or popular artist album or two that you rave about in the digital file offerings that you might care to recommend?
Just from the wide experience how the differences you described sound (mastering engineers, 33/45, pressing plants etc. when original tapes were used) vs. the difference when one was done with a copy and the other not, gives at least a bit of a hint.
Then there are the even bigger differences between all Japanese reissues (made from copies) and differences against reissue made from original tapes. Big other variations, I know, but very identifiable ones there.
But my assumption also is, a pure copy difference is less than what I hear from some of the HDTTls. I guess a major degradation is when premastered production tapes of the era were used and this probably didn’t happen rarely. That’s why it’s a mixed bag with them.
By the way Karajan Planets is very good, I just listen to it.
IMO the most basic quality advantage of vinyl against digital (besides optimally being all analog) is the superior mastering quality available most of the time, when caring for that. To play vinyl without caring how the release is done and without trying to get at least a better one, isn’t more than nostalgia and love for the machine and the physical media (nothing against that).
Hmmm, be careful not to so broadly brush this statement that you include current modern recordings being made in DXD and DSD256. If applied to digital reissues of classic analog titles, there is some merit to your comment. This is why HDTT consistently sounds better than most of the major label commercial reissues.
Yes I mainly spoke of reissues (forgot to mention), though there are some modern releases, too, where mixing/mastering was done with way more effort for the vinyl release than for the SACD (e.g. Järvi Beethoven set, SFS Mahler Cycle)
I wish they’d let that all trickle down to some more affordable hardware. I’d love to know how they achieved those results, but I suspect lots of their competition feels the same way.
