How Rudy van Gelder participates in the JAZZ art

I am still fairly new to the world of audiophile-level listening, so take the following with a grain of ear-salt. But I DO know my jazz, so I think this might be a fun discussion to have. When I recently upgraded my sound system, having thought for many years that digital is better than analog, I surprised myself by electing to add a higher-level turntable and cartridge so I could maybe hear some of what the vinyl-raving was all about. I’m still learning.

Last night I listened on vinyl to the 1967 album “Happenings” by Bobby Hutcherson, with Herbie Hancock, piano, Bob Cranshaw, bass, and Joe Chambers, drums. This album was quite an ear-opener for me. First, I noticed that the soundstage was rather narrow and thought, “OK, another 1960s Rudy van Gelder recording where he seems to still prefer mono, but begrudgingly went stereo. And there was hardly any bass to speak of - I could hear it, but nothing like modern recordings. However, there was something really “right” about this recording, and that I think was its JAZZ. Van Gelder stated it himself many times, and several audiophile critics say it too - it might not sound “audiophile” when using the same standards as other recordings, because its audiophila is in its perfect congruence with the jazz performance. Any more bass would have been too much, had the cymbals b been more shimmering, the piano more in your face, and nope, the jazz would have been less. The drums are spread a little stereo, but they’re over to the right where the drummer sits not with a high-hat off-stage to the left and the tom-tom 20 feet away on the right. The piano had a little stereo, but it was to the left, not spread out as if the piano were 18-feet wide. Was it the thick, rich piano I love so much these days? No, it was a bit thin and ordinary, but it was PRESENT and every note could be heard distinctly where you could distinctly hear Herbie Hancock’s punctuation. The vibes were a little further stereo-spread, but 1) in the middle, so the perception of Hubbard moving left and right was accurate, and 2) it’s Bobby’s record, so his instruments should deserve a little more attention, just as if you went to a club because it was a Bobby Hutcherson date. So the combined result is accurate capture to sound the way the instruments should sound, incredible balance, audibly spontaneous improvisation interchange, and a realistic amount of clarity without being over-exaggerated phonically as so many jazz recordings are. For me, this is an example of the recording engineer’s equal and shared role in creating the art of a late 60s jazz performance - perfect in its IMperfection, because jazz has no business or intention of being perfect. The final track - “The Omen" - warrants being singled out, partly because it’s the only “free” jazz tune, but there seemed also to be a shift in engineering to support the genre shift. “Omen” is about sound color as much, if not more than, about the notes being played. All instruments seemed to have received more attention from an individual sound perspective - even the box of rocks that Hancock played in strategic places. The dynamic range of this was amazing - and yes, on vinyl, to where it blew me out of my chair at points and forced me to listen as hard as I could to hear the lightest of taps on the cymbals or piano or bass. This level of sonic perfection is revealed so well by a great sound system in a great room. Again, though, van Gelder’s work is not just to capture and mix, but to participate in the making of something complex, brilliant and esoteric, executed through the musical conventions of spontaneous melody, harmony and rhythm, into something very accessible, with heart, not just brain - which is why it was always easier for me to grasp the “avant-garde” in jazz than in other forms of music.

One final question did come to mind - would this be just as exciting in digital as on vinyl? Was the “imperfection” of surface noise and analog technology playing a role in the perfect JAZZ-y presentation? I downloaded the digital - best I could find is CD level 16/44. I half expected the mastering to be another “get it over and done with and onto CD to make a few re-issue bucks” which seems to be often the case. But no, whoever Blue Note hired to do the transfer to digital did a perfect job in my opinion. Do I have the best phono and cartridge and DAC and system and speakers and cables to make this determination? Are my ears even good enough to hear the difference? Was I “hearing things” to justify the time and expense of my audio hobby? No, no, and probably no more than any other audiophile. But I got the same amount of JAZZ from either medium, and that’s what counts for me anyway.

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I’m not easily led to elevate someone to “hero” status.
But Van Gelder is one of the few. When I’m rummaging through stacks of old records and I’m “up in the air” about a particular disc, Rudy’s name always decides it for me. His work more than anyone else’s gets me the “you are there” high.

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One story I’ve loved about the analog vs. digital fight is how those on the side of vinyl will consider RVG as a god to demonstrate the superiority of the format. Then in the 90s, Blue Note asked him whether he might be willing to take his old masters and play with high-end digital gear to see whether HE could come up with a better-sounding result. As I understand it, it was truly an experiment, where if he succeeded, fine, if not, fine. He succeeded. The re-issue RVG CDs were to HIS ears better than vinyl. He was also quoted as saying when CDs came out, “good riddance” to LPs. I still like to listen to his stuff on vinyl, but it’s more of a history thing for me.

Rudy was the engineer on many of the recordings, probably most, that I explored when first seriously into jazz. He holds a place of reverence in my listening world mostly for that reason.

Those early mono recordings that he engineered in his parents’ living room have a real magic to them that set them apart at that time. And his early stereo work could also amaze with an almost supernatural presentation to the horns. There’s an entrance by Yusef Lateef on a Curtis Fuller album on Savoy that still can startle me, especially as the background to my system gets blacker and blacker.

It’s interesting how reviled his Blue Note “RVG Editions” are (mostly by jazz fans who are not audiophiles). I hear a lot of their complaints but the more flexible my system has become (I can not live without my P15’s modes or tube-rolling or my invaluable ZROCK2) the more I really like these, especially the Japanese LP facsimile editions which I have been collecting and am now at the point that those I still need are ridiculously expensive. They just have a certain atmosphere to their sonic nature that I think must have meant something to Rudy and that reaches out to me.

RIP Mr. Van Gelder. You worked so hard and so well. Rest now.

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holy crap when i saw that I thought, waaaaaaiit I thought he died years ago

and he did. 2016, for the record.

“RIP” is a phrase not used just for the newly deceased. :wink:

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So it sounds like, since I didn’t even know what a ZROCK2 is) that your listening abilities far exceed mine. I will see if I can find the Lateef entrance you mentioned. Here’s a question: you talk about the Japanese LP facsimiles having a certain atmosphere - is this not there in the regular pressings? And as far as fans “reviling” the RVG editions, I simply trust that if RVG liked them better than his originals, they’re probably good- my guess is they are applying a bit of nostalgia to the old warhorses. But I’ve also read comments that he was in his 70s when he did those and maybe his hearing was impaired. Whatever.

I don’t claim any extraordinary hearing abilities. The ZROCK2 is a tube based EQ component from Decware High Fidelity Engineering. It has two different EQ curves adjustable or bypassed and it has become an essential part of my systems for digital playback. It has a 12AU7 tube and every 12AU7 or variant I put in has its own unique trait to add. Not only can you reduce the treble and boost the bass a bit but it also tailors the midrange. Sounds like something to avoid until you have one and start to tailor with it.

The Japanese Blue Note RVG masterings came before the US Blue Note* editions, and continued, and to my ears and after research the Japanese and US editions used different masterings and/or EQ choices. It’s my opinion though I can’t substantiate it as a fact that the Japanese allowed RVG a freer reign with the final product than Michael Cuscuna (responding to customer complaints) did, and the two series sound different after the first US “wave” of releases.

If “applying a bit of nostalgia” includes adding a lot of compression and futzing with EQ then that was what he was doing with the RVG Editions. Complainants felt that they were mastered too loud and that the EQ was too bright. With my system I have less issues enjoying mastering that are somewhat compressed than others do (I think Rudy was mostly trying to replicate the lower channel separation of the past) and I can tailor the sound around high frequency EQ to a manageable extent. I liked hearing his “vision” for the releases beyond that. Yes he was old when he started this and older when the series(s) ended. . . but I think he knew what he was applying.

*Later still Concord commissioned RVG for Prestige RVG edition cds.

Here’s that Fuller album, the tune “Judyful”: Images of Curtis Fuller - Wikipedia

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Lonson sums up my impression of the RVG CD reissue series as well. While not condemning them out right, they do sound slightly unnatural to these ears. I should add I do not apply any form of compensation in my playback chain, What is Mastered is What I Get. When the RVG CD series were reissued I was eager to have access to copies of Blue notes that were generally not available, and could more ore less overlook Rudy’s remastering preferences. The performances are wonderful, and an essential addition to my BN collection. I have been a bit skeptical regarding his comments towards BN vinyl compared to his more recent RVG digital CDs, as they tend to promote sales of the new remasters.

I’ll add that the BN 75th vinyl reissues were a bit of a sonic dud, the 80th anniversary improving on the sound to a degree. The Current BN Classic series steps things up nicely, and I have yet to be disappointed in the Tone Poet reissue series, preferring the Kevin Gray’s Cohearent remastering sound to the aforementioned. I also have the majority of the Blue Note Music Matters vinyl releases, both 33 RMP and 45 RPM, and find the Cohearent Tone Poets to be equivalent in sound at a more reasonable price. Thank-you Don Was for finally stepping up.

I should add, I have a strong preference for vinyl, especially regarding the Blue Notes. I like the large format LP sleeves showcasing the Reid Miles covers, as well as the later covers. I found the CDs to be a great way to access Blue Note titles that were not readily available in a listenable condition at I price I considered reasonable, but vinyl is my first consideration.

Blue Note Music Matters Series

Blue Note Tone Poet

Blue Note Classic Series

Kevin Gray - Cohearent Records

I moved away from LPs because of availability. Even when I was living in Austin for 33 years jazz LPs were harder to find there than almost any other genre, especially in good condition, and jazz cds were everywhere. I was turned on to the music and just couldn’t find it on LP. So I moved to cds and now have more than 30 times more cds than LPs and don’t play vinyl often. Also on cd it was easy to see the original and remastering engineers on the back covers of most jazz reissues and that made my early listening searches–early on concentrating on RVG presence–easier. Love the sound of vinyl, but if you don’t have the LP you can’t play it. Over the last fifteen years I’ve refined my cd playback so much that it’s less of an issue for me sonically than ever before.

I remember when I was a slave to whatever the mastering engineer gave me. Maybe it’s because I did some band recording myself but soon after I moved to cds I began to experiment with tube-rolling and gain-riding and now with the Decware EQ unit it’s so easy to get better sound than handed to me by the industry product that it’s impossible to imagine not using these methods any longer, and I ease into the sound more than anything else.

I organized some tubes the last few days and found I have over 50 12AU7 and compatible type tubes to use in my ZROCK2s. Each one is like a different alternate sonic reality to explore. Last night I popped in a hardly labeled Amperex that is giving me great sound. If I disconnect or bypass this unit. . . not so much, no matter what other equipment I am using the compensated sound is better. We’re all different, but I am very glad to be able to compensate for the short-comings of digital releases.

Van Gelder’s signature engineering is probably the most flattered by imitation of any other jazz music engineer. Even into his digital final period he maintained a slowly evolved engineering philosophy that many artists and producers sought, and if they didn’t get it from Van Gelder himself many of their releases sought for and attained a similar sound. One of my favorite of the digital Van Gelder recordings is Barney Wilen’s “New York Romance.” The instruments are captured beautifully and artfully balanced in the mix.

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I know Barney Wilen’s New York Romance as La Ca: New York Romance. Your mention makes for a perfect first spin of the day. Also It happens to be out in my den from a previous listen.

Fortunately I had access to some great jazz vinyl in my formative listening years. Jazz Record Mart was the place for me. Early CD for me was a bit of an annoyance as the sound wasn’t up to snuff. Jazz reissues sounded as though they were rushed out to market. I did like the notion of having access to many titles that were not available to me at realistic prices. One series I embraced were the early, paper sleeve LP duplicate, Japanese Savoy reissued Charlie Parker CDs, followed by Charlie Parker The Complete Savoy and Dial Studio Recordings. The Mosaic reissue program reinforced my vinyl-centric approach to jazz reissues as well.

image

I had access to jazz vinyl early on too, but as I progressed past the “late greats” choices just weren’t about to purchase and I went to cd.

Finding ways to improve what was released was a great boon to me and allowed me to harvest from the massive jazz reissue boom on cd and tinker to enjoy the sound. I’m not unhappy I went this route, and the present cost of new and pristine original LP pressings means I can collect three or four times the music for the same money–a situation that I take advantage of.

Yes, I have that Wilen release and also variant covers on cd and SACD but my first exposure when this recording was new was this Sunnyside import release:

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(post deleted, wrong thread)

Hey, I’ve never even heard of Barney Wilen! Got some listening ahead. I do like the cover with him playing the clarinet in bed, although the lady looks like she’s more interested in reading the paper.

I think it’s a soprano sax. Barney was a master of the soprano, alto, tenor and baritone and had a lovely sound on each. He gained fame as a teenage prodigy on the tenor, recording a soundtrack with Miles at age 18 in Paris.

The lady is Marie Moor, artist and singer and Barney’s companion for a number of years. She probably has heard Barney noodling and practicing enough times to not pay attention!

Correction - that’s a soprano sax.

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Shoot, you beat me to it.

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'S alright. :wink:

Hey I listened to the Barney Wilen recording tonight. I was very surprised at how much Mr. Van Gelder had changed since the 1970s. Apparently he had gotten the memo that it’s now OK to spread the piano across the whole soundstage, but he did keep the drums contained enough. To be honest, I love the piano done that way, not so much because it’s “stage-realistic,” but because it just sounds so damn rich and intimate. RVG has been criticized many times for his bad reproduction of piano, but as I said earlier, I think he was always going for a truer on-stage sound for the old 88. But all told, you’re right that he did a magnificent job capturing the entire group. What really stood out to me is the bass. Man, talk about real, and every note where it should be in the range of the instrument - down to the heartiest lows. My only complaint was I think he had the sax a bit too hot in some places, but he made up for it when capturing the softness and intimacy that instrument can give better than I’ve ever heard. I wish he had given the sax just a bit of stereo spread, but I’m still tweaking my system and room to not have such a squeezed-in center, so it might be me. Thanks again for the recommendation. I never would have guessed that was an RVG record.

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Hi lonson Just wanted top make sure you see this - I don’t think I did it as a reply to you. [quote=“JLawry, post:19, topic:32370, full:true”]
Hey I listened to the Barney Wilen recording tonight. I was very surprised at how much Mr. Van Gelder had changed since the 1970s. Apparently he had gotten the memo that it’s now OK to spread the piano across the whole soundstage, but he did keep the drums contained enough. To be honest, I love the piano done that way, not so much because it’s “stage-realistic,” but because it just sounds so damn rich and intimate. RVG has been criticized many times for his bad reproduction of piano, but as I said earlier, I think he was always going for a truer on-stage sound for the old 88. But all told, you’re right that he did a magnificent job capturing the entire group. What really stood out to me is the bass. Man, talk about real, and every note where it should be in the range of the instrument - down to the heartiest lows. My only complaint was I think he had the sax a bit too hot in some places, but he made up for it when capturing the softness and intimacy that instrument can give better than I’ve ever heard. I wish he had given the sax just a bit of stereo spread, but I’m still tweaking my system and room to not have such a squeezed-in center, so it might be me. Thanks again for the recommendation. I never would have guessed that was an RVG record.
[/quote]

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