I’m evaluating an upgrade to be realized next spring along with a “light refurbishment” of my room.
I have 5 dedicated lines from a dedicated panel that run separately to 5 Furutech SWS NCF wall sockets. Currently I’m using common 2,5 mm2 wires, phase neutral earth each.
Having 220V electricity the AWG required might be different than typical 10 AWG used in 120V systems.
Solid is not an option, then only stranded copper is doable due to the size and shape of conduits.
The maximum diameter should be 1,2-1,3 mm, shielding included for each cable.
Any European tech guy can give me some suggestions?
Hello Luca
I don’t know what the regulations are in Italy. In Germany, stranded cables can only be installed on the wall and solid conductors can only be installed in the wall.
Different laws apply to audiophiles. I was once told.
Inakustik, Oyaide, Hifituning , Neotech have installation cables. (Supra perhaps and a few others). Cables for medical facilities are also shielded against EMV.
Unfortunately, I wasn’t crazy enough to install a high-quality cable when I laid a separate cable.
Now it’s in the wall. Ripping it open again? I should have installed it in a sufficiently large empty pipe to make it easier to replace.
Audiophile circuit breakers and residual current devices are also available. From Doepke, for example.
They are supposed to deliver better results than the fuses.
Greetings Andreas
Of course, if you prefer a stranded cable, there are many cables from the roll that come into consideration. Only 5 times the whole thing? What length and how much should it cost?
Furutech, Oyaide, Neotech, Acrolink, Acustic Review…
What is the outer diameter of the cable’s jacket? Furutech is a solid choice.
I’m interested in Acrolink and Oyaide Vondita at the moment.
My circuit has been certified by an authorized electrical technician, as should be by Italian law. 99,9% of houses have stranded in wall wires here and it’s almost impossible to find a single electrician who can/wants solid core wiring installed.
I have 2 PVC conduits available, with external diameter of 3 cms and 2 cms (can’t say the internal size).
My only chance is to reduce the lines. One for each conduit. It would offer a chance to increase the wires gauge/section. Currently am using 2,5 mm2.
Unlike US 20A120V systems, where 10 gauge is the audiophile standard, in Europe we have 16A (230V) current for dedicated lines. I’m totally ignorant about this electrical argument but I suppose the gauge required could be different in our case.
10AWG : 20A(120V) = X : 16A(230V)
Another argument largely debated on forums is to twist the wires every 10-15 centimeters.
Not to mention to use some shielding for wires.
Too many things for a guy like me who can’t even change a bulb lamp!
2.5mm2 is equal to an AWG wire gauge size of 14. If the 10:20 and X:16 is a simple ratio then that would be equivalent to a 12.5 wire gauge. My apologies if this is already known / obvious to you.
If you lay stranded cables unlike us, you can choose any power cable for audio. Just pay attention to the diameter. If there are bends in the pipes, the cable would have to be pulled through. But that shouldn’t be a problem, as stranded cables are usually flexible. We’re talking about a cable with 3 individual conductors like a normal power cable.
Or do you lay individual conductors for phase, neutral and earth?
Like an Audioquest Dragon with three separate conductors, for example?
Maybe this special cable for walls : OYAIDE EE / F-S2.6 V2.
I had tested it as a power - with Furutech NCF connetors - cable for my amps : silent, open, good tones and presence. On the other hand, it lacked a little nuance.
A dedicated line means in my case: 3 wires (phase, neutral and earth) in the same pipe, with a circuit breaker on one end in the panel and a single Furutech socket on the other end.
A pipe has 3 lines inside (9 wires) and the other 2 lines (6 wires). 5 circuit breakers in the panel, 5 sockets in the walls.
There are tables regarding the minimum thickness. Solid core conductors can bear higher loads than cables made up of several individual strands. Fixed under plaster, higher than free or laid in a pipe. At least that’s how it is in Germany, as I remember it from my apprenticeship as an energy electronics engineer.
After that, I worked as a customer service engineer for heating and ventilation systems, so I can’t remember any precise information about cable regulations.
As I said, there may be different regulations in Germany than in Italy.
So 3 individual cables to a socket? That wouldn’t be allowed in Germany. Here, the individual conductors have a sheath.
For individual conductors, the only ones that come to mind at the moment are Furutech’ Duelund, Viablue, Neotech or Van den Hul, Supra.
Here is an example of a typical situation in Italy
Not my case at all. I use for each socket only one line (3 wires: phase, neutral and earth) coming from the panel. So no connections between different sockets in my room, unlike what shown in this video. But the wires are the same, 2,5 mm2 16A for Schuko.
Ok Luca:see_no_evil:
We would lock a person up for doing that. There are probably no similar EU regulations.
Do you really have individual cables in the wall? Are they in the wall like the ones I sent Viablue? Not interwoven with an outer sheath? Internal wiring of devices or control cabinets can be done like that. But we have to attach wire end ferrules to the individual strands using suitable pliers to prevent the fine strands from breaking off.
Soldering is also now prohibited.
But it’s easy like that.
Either individual wires or an audio cable of your choice and remove the shield from the individual wires.
He probably wants the right colors.
Power cables for audio sometimes have different color markings. But maybe that doesn’t matter to you.
Hi Luca,
there is no legislative standard in the EU that would require the use of a solid core for 230V distributions. I installed a separate audio branch through the Cardas circuit breaker via the Supra Lorad 3x2.5mm cable into the socket under the plasterboard a long time ago. The inspection technician saw no problem with this
If the individual wires are laid in the empty pipe, it is permitted.
We only require the use of wire end ferrules for stranded cables.
Did the electrician just refuse to lay a cable with multiple conductors through the empty pipe because it might be more difficult for him to push it through?
Stranded cables are also permitted in empty pipes. Otherwise, stranded cables are permitted for movable connections and solid core for fixed connections in the wall.
In Germany, this is according to VDE.
It is best to discuss this with your electrician, who also has to approve the whole thing.
Best wishes, Andreas
Yes the individual wires are laid in the empty pipe, and there are wire end ferrules before the sockets.
The electrician usually refuses to lay a cable with multiple conductors through the empty pipe because it might be more difficult for him to push it through and because we have space only for 1 cable in that case (it means 1 line made by 3 wires phase/neutral/earth vs more lines, each one made by 3 wires).
So my question is: do you think that it’s better having just one cable (like audio cables) per pipe? If so, at the end of the run I have to use a single socket or more sockets connected one to each other (unlike my current set up with each socket with its own 3 wires connected to a separate circuit breaker).
It would mean, in my room, going from 5 lines (5 circuit breakers) to 2 lines (2 circuit breakers) - running through the 2 pipes available,
The pipes has external diameter of 3 cm and 2,5 cm. (don’t know how many cms are the internal section). This is crucial for choosing the new wires/cables solution.
No one in Italy has solid corre wires in the wall, believe me. There are only wires like the ones shown above in our houses. They must obviously run inside flexible pipes in plastic inside the walls
It could be that only one cable offers better shielding. The conductors are of higher quality and it may sound better in the end because there is less interference.
A flexible cable helps with laying. It shouldn’t be too thick or too rigid. A cable with shielding around the fuse box and the right twisted conductors inside is less susceptible to interference.
Yes, there can be several sockets on one cable, but the maximum load is then lower and corresponds to only one fuse required per cable.
But it could be better because there are no potential differences between several cables.
Your electrician will tell you more about this. If he is not an audiophile, he will think the idea is nonsense. Cables make no difference.
And while you’re at it. Circuit breakers are available from Doepke and Gigawatt. And maybe this is still interesting.
@luca.pelliccioli
Bring a 4mm2 cable line (consisting of 3 single-core phase, neutral and earth cables) from the panel to the system socket. In the panel, the line must be protected by a 16A + circuit breaker. As for the material to use, you have a free choice between ultra-famous sockets and expensive (de gustibus) electrical panel switches. If you want to overdo it, braid the cables before inserting them into the pipe and I recommend using talc to protect the external sheath over time and also to facilitate sliding in the pipe during installation. Once the line has been created, you can connect either a simple power distributor (with anti-disturbance filters if necessary) or a sophisticated and high-performance power regenerator such as PSAudio
I would see it like this.
You know what a high-quality cable from the wall to the power strip or filter can do.
I would see the cable from the distributor to the Furutech sockets as such. The question is of course whether a filter is then useless. You could integrate a DC filter into the distributor.
When choosing the cable, pay attention to what fits through the pipe. A Furutech dps-4.1 would probably fit through the thick pipe. Furutech 31.
In the small pipe Oyaide Vondita, Acrolink Legenda. Furutech 22.
Neotech cable, Acustic Revive…
Cheap alternative Supra. There are endless possibilities.
The decisive factor is how long the cable in the pipe has to be. How much can it cost? And what sound character should it have? You know your system and sound. Which cable complements it best. I think there is no chance for steel cables in the wall due to the diameter.
I can still think of the Nanotech Stradale 309 as an unshielded, fairly flexible cable with a nice sound.
Acrolink,Oyaide Vondita
You can have a look at Audinirvana or in Poland you can also get Acrolink from England, but there is the tax again.
I need two cables around 15 meters long each to cover the needed distance (run) from the dedicated panel to the desired wall sockets.
No matter the cost within a 3-5K euro budget, if the result worth the effort.
As for sound character I’d like no coloration at all (like silver/rhodium or what else), just typical neutrality of pure copper. My aim is working on dynamics, blacker background and blocking EMI/RF interferences (as usual). I don’t like analytical sound, being happy with warmer tendencies if they can help realism and engagement.
I’m considering two ways:
some audiophile bulky solution (which one?)
new thicker wires (4 mm2/AWG11 or even 6 mm2/10AWG) twisted along the run inside the pipe
Still wondering if shielding design is really mandatory and if so how to connect the shielding to earth (on the breaker panel side or on the socket end - and why is it required). I read the even free wires inside the pipe can fight interferences if twisted every 8-10 centimeter. Can’t say if twisted and braided, in that case, mean the same thing.
I’ll certainly discuss these options with my electricians (have 2 of them supporting me but both without any audiophile skill, sob!). Each time they look at me as I am a martian!
I asked several times to dealers in my area if they know any “audiophile electrician”. No one, so sad!
From forums or from the web in general, I find many useful infos but always from audiophile experts who are using US 20A 120V electricity.
I should have installed it in a sufficiently large empty pipe to make it easier to replace.
