Keep It Simple, Stupid (about KISS Audio)

Audio Components
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No need to imagine - I have three of them, they are actually DSPs with DACs built in I suppose, if that makes a difference.
If I want to use a different DAC with the DSP I just ignore the analogue outputs of the DSP and hook a different DC to the digital outputs of the DSP, and carry on hooking the dig out of the source to the dig in of the DSP.

Or, use a DSP and then place the DAC straight after.

That was a lot of "DSP"s in one sentence: I wanted to be clear :slight_smile:

It is not an all-in-one solution though…

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I don’t know how old you are but in my lifetime 1300 does not count as “recent years”. Plus the lute has its origins in Ancient Egypt some 5,000 years ago and was prevalent in the Middle East long before it came to Europe.

I tried Roon a few years earlier and it did not work as my SATA server was too slow.
I am not aware of any software that allows multiple users to use multiple systems from different manufacturers in the same house at the same time with the same music library and streaming accounts.
Please recommend me something that can do that, and it won’t be Octave because that is a closed system.

The reason is because audio manufacturers manufacture player software that connects to servers, as we are promised with Octave. Roon is unique in being designed from the server end to connect to players.

Plus I worship my wife, not Roon, and I will not get rid of Roon because my wife loves it. She’s using it in the kitchen as I watch some sport upstairs.

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Logitech Media Server (LMS) can have multiple clients playing different music, the clients can be (from eBay) squeezeboxes (the “touch” is still highly regarded) or Raspberry Pis running software (for the tinkerers among us), and I believe other devices also speak “LMS”. Used to be able to access it with any old web browser too so that probably still works.
Oh and the developers have recently added support for external streaming sources (qobuz and the like).
It’s not “any devices” but it is “quite a few different devices”.

It is also entirely free and open-source, so even if Logitech go bust it will likely still be maintained.

What it does require, however, is some computer savvy to build the server (it’s very straightforward, but not plug and play), or buying one ready-made (at least one manufacturer of streamers provides it as an alternative to Roon and is reputed to sound better using LMS. Various apps can control LMS and the players and are available on iThings and Android.
This won’t answer your requirement, but it does suit some audiophiles very well so worth mentioning it :slight_smile:

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Innuos servers have something called Squeezelite on it, for reasons I don’t understand. I think it may be because, and again I may be wrong, it is not ideal to play Roon though usb, and Squeezelite is better. That’s too many subclauses, but we’ve just had a nice Pauillac.

So it’s definitely a Roon’y type thing/alternative for clever people who know about computers.

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As @plaudiofeel said. The subject was not about integrals vs. separates.

It was about system synergy the industry fails on:

2 main areas:

  • Desire to avoid double functions, ie. one DAC or one phono stage in the system is enough
  • Lack of standard interconnects

I fully understand @stevensegal. I like high quality integrated units for which I apply the above criteria equally as others who prefer separates.

At some point we need to connect a source to an integrated pre amp or / digital hub.

For wired analog the balanced XLR connections are undoubtedly superior to single ended.

For digital it is a problem. Today’s high bit rates and high frequencies render Toslink, coax and EAS EBU inferior to connections that transport the data separately from the clock and other auxiliary data, or interfaces that offer a bandwidth that offers sufficient headroom to ensure that every bit received well and perfectly matched with the clock.

Toslink: regardless it’s limited bandwidth, a keeper as it allows me to connect less critical sources like TV’s, set top boxes and game consoles to my stereo while they remain completely galvanically separated. Perhaps one day replaced by a better optical standard, but considering its purpose more than good enough.

Coax, was rendered obsolete 15 years ago for digital signals.

USB-2: Does not provide sufficient bandwidth to allow proper handshakes and checksums of the arrived high bit rate audio data packages like any computer data in order to play it fluently.

Ethernet: Provides enough bandwidth to do what USB-2 is not capable of, there are standard galvanically separated interfaces available. A serious candidate to replace USB-2.

HDMI: Fast enough to transport video data for even 4k televisions which is a multitude of high bit rate high frequency audio data, offers enough physical links to separate the clock and auxiliary data from the audio data which saves time consuming steps to at the source to combine it all in a timely matter and at the receiver side to separate it all in a timely matter. Something that could also be achieved over Ethernet cables including handshakes and checksums.

USB-C, the current standard for data transmission does everything Ethernet and HDMI can do together, but perhaps a bit to short to place the sources away from the hub (whether an integral (pre) amplifier or separate DAC).

Therefore either I2S over HDMI or Ethernet are the superior single cable interlinks when it comes to high res audio sound quality.

Wireless:
To my opinion not developed to where it should be.
At the moment WISA is the state of the art standard as it offers 24bit 96kHz PCM only.

Whilst I think that it allows very good sound quality, it does not offer other audio formats to be transmitted natively YET. So DSD or higher resolution formats need processing which defeats the purpose of those formats. I am in PS Audio’s camp in that the conversion from PCM to DSD can be done with less loss in SQ than converting DSD to PCM when converting to analog.

If and when wireless becomes audio file format independent it becomes the most serious alternative to wired digital connections. With one catch, if I don’t want all that radiated data, it can not replace the analog XLR connection. Never.

Does it really make a difference? Experts are still fighting over that. It is a subject beyond my knowledge. Practically however, I have and will keep mobile devices in the living room in which I want to live and listen to music. So there is always some level of radiation, even radiated by the high end equipment itself.

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Not true. Listen to both XLR and RCA for every connection. XLR doesn’t always win. For me and many others single ended is preferred. Cable designers say that one isn’t superior to the other across the board.

If you don’t need the noise rejection XLR offers, single ended is usually the way to go with my experience.

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There are probably more units using Dual AES/EBU than I2S. Who knows? Apparently its been around 25 years.

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There is an interesting explanation of the differences between the two types and reasons for using one over the other on Darren’s blog.
I never understood the noise cancelling mechanics of the XLR until he simplified them into non EE terms.
And you are right. Whichever one sounds the best to you is the best. Same with the rest of the stereo gear we all chat about.

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The statement was based purely on the principle of the cables and connectors. With regards to the screening being potential free ground rather than the more vulnerable return line.

Whether the balanced transmitter and common rejection mode (differential mode) is implemented well in the electronics on in the connected equipment at both ends is a different issue.

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As luck would have it, today Devialet released a software update for their Expert product that includes a DSP function called “Sweet Room”. It allows you to make 9 adjustments ±12dB anywhere in the range 0-20Khz. You can set each channel separately, apparently also each input separately if you want and it can be toggled on and off from the remote, so you can use a frequency sweep to check its effectiveness. Yo can add main and alternate settings and toggle between them, so a dropout can for example be given +3dB and +6dB and you can compare both to +0dB using the remote.

All you need is REW and a usb microphone (getting mine out soon!) to measure your room and decide what needs tweaking.

Of course you can do this with a standard pro equaliser like those I suspect you use, but it is a good example of the benefit of integrated digital processing. And it’s free.

It’s implemented by writing the chosen values in a text file and copying it to an SD card, then putting the card in the machine. You can swap the card in and out whilst the system is playing and it automatically loads the new settings.

Unusually for Devialet, they pre-announced it a week ago. They take a different philosophy to PSA, announcing things 5 years ahead!

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could do with an app or some such to configure it, though the option to load a text file is cool too, good to see equalisation being seen as acceptable in “audiophile” circles again, even if it has snuck back in under the guise of room correction.

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I am sorry, Steven. I expected you to know to what I refer when I mentioned the invention of lute tablature around the year 1300.

Tablature was one of the earliest systems of musical notation, allowing a composer to record his music. Below is an example, a bit of John Dowland’s lute piece Lachrimae. The horizontal lines represent a course (string), the dots fret position, timings are indicated by the type of dot, the additional marks, etc. There is no indication of volume or tempo.

Lachrimae1ms-beg

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I think you’ll find tablature in South East Asia 2,000 to 3,000 years before John Dowland. They were attaching bits of string to wooden boards when Dowland’s ancestors were still standing in stone circles worshipping the sun. Had the Druids known about Roon, they may have worshipped that as well.

In UK law at least copyright as applies to music has been extended to protect software rights, so had John Dowland coded Roon he might have slept easy at night, save for the fact that that he died about 100 years before copyright law came into existence.

Patents apply to things, rather than words.

Words can be subject to copyright, but you can’t copyright the word “amplifier” on the grounds of common usage. You could design one, call it Elkatronics and apply for a “Elkatronics” trademark. There was a massive fight years ago between Apple Records (McCartney) and Apple (Steve Jobs). Can’t remember how it panned out, but the legal fees were horrendous.

It remains that Roon is fabulous, evident from the extent to which it has been adopted and how many people subscribe to it.

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Great Googling, Steven. Thank you for sharing.

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Actually I have a curious interest in Asian music since going to the opera in Canton (Guangdong) in 1984 and watching Cloud Gate from Taiwan for many years. Have had fascinating discussions about these things with Lawrence, professing my affection for the geomungo, most recently after seeing the Silk Road Ensemble performing Layla & Majnun.

As for the law, I work in that area so I should have some idea.

p.s. I forgot to mention this:
Louis-Couperin-Unmeasured-prelude-300x259
The famous unmeasured preludes by Louis Couperin. There is a fabulous recorded version by Pavel Kolesnikov.

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You are researching and arguing against positions no one has taken.

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The Preludes came to mind as you mentioned timing and here is music with no indication of meter. Plus I heard Kolesnikov play this weekend. You might enjoy it.

With regard to Lachrimae, you might be interested in these notes from a programme I’ve dug out (Nadal is having a long match), which explain the impact of printing technology turning music into a money business and that the Lachrimae were distributed around Europe in 3 versions over a period of 10 years. It was a bit more than Dowland writing it down in case he forgot it.

20201006_230944
20201006_2309443000×4000 2.13 MB
20201006_230847
20201006_2308473000×4000 1.07 MB

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You can have your feast of Dowland, including Lachrimae, live streaming on Wednesday.

https://wigmore-hall.org.uk/whats-on/fretwork-202010141930