For me personally Roon has its point in the beauty of the user interface and the connected background information regarding artist and other similar music etc. I’m convinced you can make both equal or better.
The rest of Roon to me as Jriver user is as limited in functionality as any other SW.
That’s why I wouldn’t have a problem with a non integration of Roon. I guess in the end many existing Roon users will mainly have a problem due to their lifetime purchase, not due to functionality differences to Octave. Maybe some with multiroom configurations etc.
My main point is that I dearly need the option of user individual view design (e.g. over PC interface) for flexible cascaded views related to custom tags to be used from the iPad app. Another very relevant feature for me is the ability to edit the tags also from the iPad app (e.g. to edit sound or music quality of the currently playing album, which are some of the custom tags I use).
If Octave can provide this, I’m in…for Bridge III…as I don’t need half of what the Octave server provides.
Can you tell something about those features included in the SW or not Paul?
I think Roon is a fantastic interface. I can’t and don’t rely on the metadata information because they rely primarily on Allmusic, which is an incredibly poor resource.
Did you know that I’m one of the masters of an instrument I barely play? Many years ago I tried to get myself separated from some braggart with the same name. No luck - so in Roon, that’s who I am.
I remember you stating the same information unequivocally in an earlier post (6 months to a year ago?). Then, and now, I could well understand why you are following this route.
As I did not wish to become locked in to a particular closed server environment I started then looking for potential hardware/software alternatives that are far more open. Perhaps the situation was easier for me than many as I already have my music library on a NAS with the metadata curated to match my listening needs and thus only needed to find endpoint hardware and control software i.e. a replacement for Bridge II, as Bridge III will be Octave hardware and software. After some research (and saving my pennies) I found and bought a dCS Network Bridge. Their second go at control software has recently been upgraded and these changes have now made it usable for my needs (a large local library of classical music). dCS are very responsive to user feedback on their software (aka PS Audio) so I can anticipate an increasingly well-featured control app in the future. Oh and by the way the sound quality is amazing.
[UPnP (in conjunction with Minimserver), Deezer Hi-Fi, Qobuz & TIDAL are supported by the dCS control app and the hardware supports Airplay, Spotify Connect and Roon.]
Octave sales may be quite limited outside of the PSA fan base, as many , independent of Octave’s quality, will possibly be reluctant to invest in a 6k unit of a “3rd party” manufacturer (from their other equipment’s point of view) if it’s proprietary.
But in case this customer base is not big enough for PSA’s planning with Octave, I think it can work anyway if the initial quality/feature set convinces and add. features and updates will be handeled quite actively and flexibly. As many assumed, this will just be quite some continuous effort and investment (which again needs a large customer base to be profitable). Apple made it, too, so all the best and good luck! I guess we will see various strategies among streaming device vendors in future and maybe new standards, too?
So the offer is this (and I stand to be corrected):
You will store your files inside the device
You will stream the services we support (Tidal, Qobuz, Airplay, …?)
You will only use our control app.
You will not be able to play files resident on a separate networked device.
You will not be able to play the stored files to any other system or device
You will not be able to use a uPnP player.
Could you, for example, use MConnect on an iOS device and send networked files via Airplay?
I don’t go with the arguments about OSX updates messing up Roon. OSX updates have killed lots of good apps. Roon, Innuos and most others run on Linux and QNAPs run on QTS, which have never caused problems.
The approach that Octave will only sound at its best if you use it as a closed system because third party software and external servers degrade the sound, and so we are only providing a closed system, is fair enough if that’s what you believe. But there are no doubt many people, including me and probably @jvvita, who either don’t agree that Roon or other uPnP players adervsely affect sound quality or, even if they do, they still want to use them because they form part of their overall home entertainment systems.
I agree that it is certainly unusual, as @jvvita says, to have so much transparency up front. What normally happens is that a company releases a product with a data sheet (and marketing gumph) and, if the product is of interest, I would run through what it offers.
The reality is that some companies make products specifically for their own ecosystem, Linn in particular, which is a pretty large company. Linn will not implement any closed protocol like Airplay 2 or Roon. However, Roon wanted to attract Linn users, and Linn have a huge streamer product range (probably more than anyone else), so they implemented Linn’s protocol into Roon. So you can use Roon to operate a Linn streamer, but they are not Roon Ready and Roon cannot do Linn multi-room. Linn’s own software does multi-room anyway.
I am not disappointed about what Paul said. For the same reason I like Apple, hardware and software in full control I like PS Audio’s hardware-software concept. If and when it trickles down to the current Stellar price level.
I hope PS Audio utilizes a business model allowing them to keep supporting the hard and software infrastructure to make the Octave Music on line service a long term system. Like I utilize iTunes/Music for the 12th year now.
I’m very interested in Octave (we need a big change from Bitperfect/iTunes/Apple) and I’m not using Roon (paid for 2 years & quit). I think the vision is great and believe that PS Audio has enough supporting technology and knowledge to make Octave an outstanding product sonically (my #1).
When I listened to the AN3s on Oct 31, I played CDs on the PS Audio transport in MR3. Hypothetically, if you replaced that transport with Octave (powered via the P20), ripped my CDs (WAV or AIFF files), and played the songs via Octave to the same DS DAC, would the sound be better? If so, why? And would there be a difference in sonic quality if those songs were streamed from Qobuz with the same file resolution?
I expect that Octave will pair up nicely with the DS DAC and Ted’s upcoming DAC. Hence I think that will increase sales of all 3 units. Also, the upcoming AN3 speakers will essentially complete the PSA full system offering (for $75k “the best we have” in the digital realm). As they are now doing Direct Sales in the USA, they can demo the full system without minimal compromises. As a Canadian, it was not feasible for me to get a proper demo before I bought my DS DAC and P12 - I had to trust in the good reviews on the PSA forum. From this point on, it will make sense for me to spend $1k to fly to Boulder to listen to the final version of the AN3 before I place an order in Canada. I am very interested in Octave, but don’t have a demo/purchasing strategy at this time. The info shared and discussed in this forum is fantastic.
The majority of my system is PS Audio and I am very happy with the units and the company.
The solution I used pre-DS Senior is an innuos Zen Mk 3 and Roon, primarily to stream Qobuz and Tidal. Unlike some of the other streaming solutions I have tried, this combo is easy to use and reliable, with a great UI to make finding stuff easy. The innuos works as both a Roon end point streamer and a ROCK server simultaneously, which simplifies things.
Overall, my system sounds better than ever and is satisfying. There is always room for improvement, of course, but at this point there is nothing urgently calling my name. If the Octave server matches the functionality of what I have and sounds better, it is a win. If the software is robust, visually compelling, and easy to use, all is good. We will just have to wait and see.
As Paul moves PS in the direction of a one stop hifi universe and takes responsibility for the entire experience (a huge goal), I see why control is needed. In fact, I would like to see fully proprietary products that are system-optimized as opposed to being a plug in piece for universal application for those of us who flip gear too often.
Yes I’m sure especially for all (but not only) existing PSA customers used to Roon it will be very welcome and we are all keen to see if it’s even so good that it also convinces most others.
IMO if the file on your haddisc is aif and the quobuz file is flac (it’s for sure compressed lossless which needs more processing power to get played) the aif could sound better.
Yes, the sound would be better. And it will be better in the Octave server as well as the new transport we’re working on because of the new technology applied. In the server it’s isolated with a technique called the Air Gap Interface - where we use air as an
insulator between the noisy internal computer in the Octave server, and the quiet of the Digital Lens output stage.
Hmm, hadn’t thought of that, but does multi-room user then suggest there’d be a market for Stellar and Sprout hubs on the Octave network that play in multiple rooms at the same time? Don’t know if there’d be a business case for that, tho . . . …
I had a Linn system with an Akurate DS streamer. It was completely closed. It worked brilliantly.
Linn were even more uncompromising than Paul. They did not like USB as a quality input. In fact it only had an ethernet input and files had to be stored on a network drive. Fortunately n those days there was a thing called an iOmega network drive that did the job without having to buy a QNAP or Synology unit.
They then issued an Akurate DSM streamer/pre-amp. For digital it has SPDIF and optical but still no USB. They’ve stuck to their principles for 13 years.
I am still deeply suspicious of USB as a digital transport medium, noisy dirty format (when coming out of a general purpose computer, especially so) hence all the additional widgets and boxes available to try and clean it up.
The only advantage I can see is the ability to transport PCM (and DSD) rates that are higher than TOSLINK, SPIDF, or AES/EBU (the latter being my preferred, but I’m happy with optical whenever electrical isolation is desired), but I’m not convinced it’s worth the grunge.
Happy that others (possibly with a higher budget) have a different experience though
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Nowadays you can use USB C to manage your video stream to a monitor. If I’m not mistaken, 4K Video uses a higher data rate than most audio. The USB protocol has evolved to the point where is can do many things that required different means in the past. I’m fine with it as long as standards are adhered to.
True, it is after all supposed be a Universal Serial Bus, as I understand it HDMI is pretty closely based on USB, it’s a very flexible method to transport digital streams of any sort.
I guess I like isolation at an electrical level too much (optical, or transformer based for AES/EBU), and don’t want to sift through many different USB devices (and cables, for goodness sake) to find one I’m happy with
As for Octave - Go for it, Mr. McGowan, and **** the naysayers (in a friendly, polite way of course)
It sounds like you have a clear vision, I sincerely hope it pays off, it will certainly benefit those who do use it.
As in today’s configurations the PC which usually holds the server SW could be on a separate circuit (and now is inside the audio unit) , there’s a also bit more to isolate than usual then in an Octave Server I guess. Possibly without the care taken as you plan, the idea of the complete server computing inside the audio unit could even sound worse than what we have today.
Maybe the best solution would be a 2 box Octave server with the server unit in one box on a separate power circuit and another box with the streaming unit internally isolated and in the audio circuit?
That’s what Auralic, Linn and possibly several others do - and have been very successful. Auralic has been hugely successful.
The Auralic app allows you to play multiple Auralic units around your house and is also Roon Ready. When Roon came out Auralic said they had no interest in it as they felt they could do it better. Personally I think they did, I prefer the Auralic interface to Roon, but Auralic gave in to customer pressure and implemented Roon.
The same has happened with cameras, companies issued different apps for each camera. Now the ones I know have one app that can control all the cameras in their range.
