Russian Tubes - Supply Issue?

Interesting the experiences you three have. I have not had the same. In fact as far as signal tubes new production have been noisier and less reliable than NOS. I’m using all NOS signal tubes (Amperex 6085 with adaptor bases, Amperex 7062 and RCA 6SN7 gray glass with adaptor bases and have much better sound than with any new production tubes I’ve used and have had year of trouble free use so far.

The output tubes I use, 615P-EV are also NOS and what my amps are designed to work best with (though they’ll also work with EL84 though one “mod” is not actuated) and are likely to be hard to come by in the present and near future, but over the years I’ve collected about 25 pairs from different tube plants and have two back pairs of my favorite examples, those elected, tested and matched by the builder, so I think I can weather a storm lasting 20 years or so. . . .

I pray for the people of Ukraine.

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Yea, probability statistics are interesting in of themselves, but our emotional responses to them are even more interesting. You had good experiences (not one-offs) therefore NOS are great and no risk. A few of us had bad experiences (not one-offs) and therefore NOS are bad and fraught with risk. Truth? I dunno.

This probability issue and human emotion permeates human experience and decision making. Another analog is car engines and reliability. One maker I am familiar with had a run of engines that blow up… or more accurately, have a higher statistical probability of blowing up. Is this a good engine or a bad engine? I had one that blew up, the maker replaced it, and it blew up. Others are pushing 200K miles on the same model/year/engine… I dunno.

A kind of acid test I use when making a judgement… is I think if I was giving advice to a young person stretching financially to buy something… what advice would you give to them? Go NOS all the way? Heck, that engine is OK, it is all over-blown?

Peace
Bruce in Philly

I wasn’t advising. I’m also hesitant to give any advice, as my experiences are my own and as with everything experiences differ.

I have encountered far more tube enthusiasts who find NOS reliable and yielders of better fidelity than new production ones but it’s really all about the system, the user and taste as far as fidelity and reliability can also be because of component design and user habits.

We’ll follow our own paths. I’m not using new production when I don’t have to, and I totally understand if someone else goes the opposite direction if their experiences lead them to it.

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I have had mainly good experience with NOS tubes. It’s the seller that you should trust to be honest. I’ve only had one bad experience and it was with a German, Ebay seller. She sold obviously untested tubes to me. They were popping and crackling from the first insertion. I got my money back and she banned me from her store. Really?, that was funny. A bad seller banning you? I couldn’t stop laughing that day.

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It would be interesting to know the plans of the Chinese government regarding the future of the large Shuguang vacuum tube factory. As a state owned enterprise, they aren’t forthcoming about where things stand after the old factory was forced to close last year. Supposedly they are going to relocate and open a new factory.

The Slovak JJ factory was overwhelmed by demand before this latest Russian issue ever developed. Order lead times from them were six months last autumn according to some industry news reports I’ve read. When demand increases it’s not easy to increase production to pick up market slack. There are finite numbers of the old machinery required and few skilled workers that are available. JJ had a dubious history of firing all their skilled workers at one point when they tried to cheapen production and it’s burned them in the long run.

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I believe it comes down to application, there is a big difference on how hard the Decware drives the tubes versus the preamplifier I use, which is an Audible Illusions 3A. The AI can be rather brutal, so Amperex, Mullard and Telefunkens are not well suited to it. I have tried Hungarian Tungsram which while famtastic, I had also desired that they would last longer. Similar experiance with Ediswan tubes.

This begs the question as to how one defines NOS, as the Matsushitas I use are from the early '70s.
The tubes I use in my cj Premier 11a, can go the distance with no worries, RCA black plate from the 50s, and Sylvanias from the early sixties. I have several quads of GE 6550 and a quad of GE 6550 that I also like. For now I am running Tung-sol KT-120s and I very pleased with them. I did pick up 3 quads of KT-90 II prior to the Yugoslavian conflict, which I also like.

To sum up the tube pedigree, source and lastly application play are large role. The later being the primary consideration, especially in the case of AI preamplifiers. I am seriously considering going solid state for a preamplifier should I decide to change. Most likely a Pass Labs XP-22. I prefer the sound of tubes, but pedigree and availability these days is more of an issue tha n when I first started on my thermionic journey.

Absolutely, component design plays a large part in reliability and longevity. My Decware preamps are apparently gentle on tubes, and they are always fed clean power which also helps. Tubes last a long time. I just can’t live with solid state any longer. . . every time I have tried I end up with tubes. It’s just what and how I hear I guess.

I’m lucky. I have seven tackle boxes full of tubes now, after about 25 years of using tube components and tube-rolling. I think I can keep listening for some time!

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Purchasing in-stock tubes from American companies helps American companies.
Vacuum tubes are on the banned list of items from Russia, so there won’t be a new supply of Russian tubes until this situation is resolved.

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STOP PANIC BUYING TUBES! Where’s Quaaludes when we need them? Upscale Audio’s Kevin Deal - YouTube

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Indeed, buy Valium Tubes!

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For years tubes were the only way to go in home stereo for me.
But alas we now are at a bad point in time…when tubes
will become pricier and harder to come by…

The virtues the joys of ss gear…no filamint and cathode worries…
or tube supply worries…

Hopefully all that will change for the better.

Best wishes

Thanx for that vid! He is a hoot!! I buy stuff from him… talked on the phone once… I have no issues buying from Upscale (got Focals (speakers and headphones), PrimaLuna, KT150s, and some NOS driver tubes from him).

Peace
Bruce in Philly

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He’s a good man, he totally sold me on the PrimaLuna, if I was stateside I’d definitely buy my tubes from him.

I’ve had good luck with nos tubes in my preamp and tube dac that are powered up 24/7
The tube gear I have are easy on tubes and I buy from one of the most experienced tube seller.

Another perspective on the future of tubes…

Rhett goes at it another way… that young musicians, even guitar players who traditionally favor tube amplification over transistors, are moving away from tubes. Not only are they using digital modeling, but all sorts of Virtual Studio Technologies (VSTs) with their instruments… they are moving away from using the traditional amplifier like we are so familiar with in the pop music we grew up with.

So… given that the biggest market for tubes is musical instrumentation, and if that market will “go away”, tube making was on the way out anyway. If this is true, then it may stifle new investment in production to backfill the shrinking supply from Russia.

My opinion, is that the market for tubes is huge being a global market and there will always be makers filling the demand. I have witnessed the move from analog synthesizers to digital, and now a move back to them. I witnessed the introduction of transistor guitar amplifiers… how they took off like crazy, only to be replaced by the old tube designs. Back when I purchased my first guitar amplifier, I chose a MusicMan tube design as it just sounded better. Musicians (as they mature) learn that analog has a more real feel than “artificial” sounds produced in the digital domain. In short, musicians will always want them, therefore there will always be suppliers, and a healthy musical market will result in a healthy audiophile market. Overall, I agree with Kevin of Upscale… tubes ain’t going away despite the temporary bump in supply… the global market is and will always be massive.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

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And then there’s this:

The noble gas shortages are the real deal long term. Every time I see helium balloons I cringe because helium is an important industrial gas that’s essential for electronics production, and it’s not something you can just easily make more of.

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Oh c-‘mon Mike, those balloons :balloon: are so cute.
image

And those Mickey Mouse voices when you inhaled the gas are so funny. Every kid loves them on their birthday party.

But in fact I agree. It is an industrial gas. It is inherently dangerous, it accumulates in the longs and when breathing it too much causes shortage of oxygen in the blood which can cause serious issues.

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From the Audio Voice Newsletter, March 17, 2022

Meeting Supply for Vacuum Tubes
Time to Save Those Tubes?

Supply chain issues are a familiar problem for product-oriented and manufacturing businesses and the last two years have shown how extensive the consequences of any disruptions can be. For most consumers, the semiconductor shortage was the most visible sign of the market interdependency problems, where natural disasters in one country can cause ripple effects all over the world. The effects of the global pandemic have thrown a powerful combination of multiple, consecutive disruptions that are causing long-lasting shortages in the most unsuspected places.

Over the last two years, the audio industry has felt the direct effects of those disruptions in the supply chain across all its market and product segments. While “chip shortages” have been extensively debated in mainstream media, a much less visible shortage of apparently non-critical electronic components is actually causing wider-reaching problems for all manufacturers who have been unable to meet demands, some even forced to stop production completely while implementing product redesigns to offset those challenges. And after two years, audio manufacturers - as in many other industries - have transitioned from just-in-time and build-to-order strategies, to design for availability.

More recently, the cumulative effects of lockdowns and geopolitical tensions have caused even more strain over the supply of raw materials, directly reflected in escalating costs for aluminum, neodymium, and even more common materials such as steel and nickel. Adding the escalating transportation costs and shipping delays generates a perfect storm that is causing a complete rethink of non-essential product production. And I would like to highlight how manufacturing and logistical challenges are causing despair among many startups and entrepreneurs dreaming about new product categories and brand strategies - including the thousands of innovative crowdfunding campaigns in the electronics space that have suddenly become not viable and impossible to execute.

The global supply chain was already feeling all the severe effects of two years of pandemic, when the invasion of Ukraine and the resulting sanctions imposed on Russia further impacted the supply of raw materials, and many important parts and components. It’s a known fact that both Ukraine and Russia are important suppliers of raw materials, particularly steel and aluminum, but also many critical parts and components for the electronic industry. But the scale of the impact on vacuum tube production seems to be much larger than we could imagine.

The invasion of Ukraine and the resulting sanctions imposed on Russia are obviously having a significant impact on the global supply of tubes, but the scale of that impact seems to be much larger than we could imagine.
As audioXpress is getting ready to send its traditional Glass Audio May 2022 “tube issue” to the printer, most of the traditional amplifier tube suppliers have gone silent. The current situation is obviously having a significant impact on the global supply of tubes - of all the product categories that are so dear to the audio industry.

This week, while we were already in contact with some of those suppliers trying to assess the scale of the problems, companies started to make their positions more clear. Many of the European and US-based suppliers and distributors of tubes have stopped taking further orders, and some websites were temporarily suspended. audioXpress received an update from Tube Amp Doctor Musikhandels GmbH, an established supplier of amplifier tubes, which has been around since 1993, always with products designed in Germany but outsourcing its manufacturing from China.

"Without a doubt, the current situation on the tube market can be classified as dramatic,” they state. As Tube Amp Doctor explains, for years, manufacturing for the most common tube types, such as 12AX7, ECC83, EL84, EL34, and 6L6GC has been dependent on only three manufacturers. Following the closing of the Shuguang Electron Tube Factory operation in August 2019, the largest manufacturer of tubes in China, which has not reopened during (and probably because of) the pandemic, Tube Amp Doctor says that it is now working with a small manufacturer in China since 2020, but that facility is only producing the larger volumes types, while gradually introducing the production of further models.

Prices for key raw materials are reflecting the effects of current disruptions and increasing exponentially.

It’s one thing to design cost-is-no-object DIY audio amplifiers that can rely on new-old-stock (NOS) tubes, but with prices of new tubes rising 4x and uncertain availability, any manufacturers considering volume production of audio equipment using new tubes will need to rethink their strategies - and cost structure.
So, what’s left for the short term? JJ Electronic, based in Slovakia, is an established source for many of the popular tubes used in guitar amplifiers and hi-fi equipment but even before the invasion of Ukraine and the Russian sanctions, the company was already confirming very long delivery times (14 to 18 months depending on models) as a result of the pandemic. And we don’t know how immune JJ Electronic remains from the rest of the supply chain, including from Russia, a common (and affordable) source for materials.

A few contacts that audioXpress established looking for clarification of those interdependencies, and to understand which manufacturing operations remained in operation, led us to realize the level of uncertainty. No one knows for certain how many tube manufacturing operations remain viable in Russia, being certain that the sanctions not only make exporting tubes almost impossible, but that the sanctions are likely to cause further strain over operations and the supply of source materials that those manufacturers in Russia need. And from China, there are significant disruptions caused by the consecutive pandemic lockdowns, transportation challenges, and cost increases.

One of the companies sourcing all its production from Russia is Electro-Harmonix (EHX). The company, founded by Mike Matthews in 1968, has been continuously expanding its business serving the music and audio industry - from its beginnings in guitar effects pedals, to being the highest volume supplier of vacuum tubes for amplifiers and professional audio equipment. Starting from New Sensor Corp., in NY, EHX today owns its own vacuum tube factory in Saratov, Russia, where it produces tubes under the Sovtek, Tung-Sol, Mullard, and Genalex/Gold-Lion brands.

A product category that is currently heavily dependent on limited production coming from Russia or China. Alternatives are currently in Slovakia …and the US.
New Sensor Corp. and Electro-Harmonix had a connection with what was once one the largest factories of vacuum tubes in Russia, the Svetlana plant in St. Petersburg. New Sensor even had the rights for the Svetlana brand in the US and Canada, but that operation ceased production in 2012 and EHX production is now concentrated at the Xpo-pul factory (the former Reflektor plant) in Saratov. The latest update from Electro-Harmonix on its website says that the company has managed to resolve the export restriction on Russian tubes for now, and that back orders will be processed starting in April, while new orders are being accepted with significant price increases, fully reflecting the tariffs imposed by US and Canada.

Contradicting that announcement, websites such as the popular valvetubeguitaramps.com say that, “nothing is being shipped out of Russia” and that supplies are already running very low, while some popular items that can be sourced from JJ Electronic are not expected to be replaced “until 2023.” Another popular website, Thetubestore.com simply announced that it is temporarily closed and not accepting any new orders after being “overwhelmed with orders.”

Western Electric has made quality tubes for more than 100 years and the company that carries the brand is getting ready for the next 100 in its state-of-the-art Rossville factory.
Made in USA
Meanwhile, while targeting the higher end of the audio market, Western Electric has resumed manufacturing 300B tubes in its state-of-the-art Rossville Works in Rossville, GA. Looking to better understand the perspectives for tube audio, I reached out to Charles Whitener, the entrepreneur who had the vision to carry on the Western Electric operation, and currently the company’s president and CEO. In a brief conversation, we’ve learned that this situation is not likely to improve significantly, at least over the next two years.

In his ambition to revitalize Western Electric, Charles Whitener is probably one of the very few individuals who has visited all the tube factories that remained in operation over the last three decades. In fact, since 2006, Whitener acquired some of those factories in the US and Europe, or acquired all the machinery that was left, and which is now being used at the Rossville Works to produce 300Bs, but can also be applied to revive production for other models.

But, as Whitener states, no effort in tube manufacturing will be able to change the current situation in a short period. The challenges faced being cumulative in key areas that he acted upon over the last decade. First by acquiring the machinery, production equipment, and processes that are required. Second, training the people to resume production and achieving quality production yields, which is something that cannot happen quickly. In fact, as he confessed, Western Electric had to surpass many additional challenges over the last five years, including finding a supplier for the glass tubes, following the disappearance of the incandescent light bulb, and the closing of the last remaining glass factories, including General Electric, Philips, and Osram. Apparently, the quality of glass required for vacuum tubes is now only available from a single source in Germany, and requires volumes that far surpass years of production for the audio industry. Adding the rising costs of key materials, such as nickel, means that the investment level required for a manufacturing operation of tubes is higher than ever.

If there is a company well prepared to challenge those obstacles and anticipate the timeline, it will be Western Electric. Over the last two decades, Western Electric acquired the know-how and machinery from the Philips Mullard operations, including grid and cathode machines, processes, and all the metal parts from Siemens, Mullard, and Telefunken. And that helps explain why Charles Whitener is optimistic that he will be able to meet future demand, even considering the costs of shipping and rising costs of materials.

Charles Whitener, Western Electric president and CEO, is assessing plans to expand tube operations, since its modern Rossville factory is equipped to handle production of multiple tube types.
Following our brief conversation on March 16, Western Electric has already sent out a (soft) announcement regarding the company’s intentions and confirming “plans to expand tube operations.” The announcement states: Recent Russian sanctions, along with the closure of a few essential tube manufacturers over the years, have led to uncertainty and disruption in the tube supply chain. At the moment, we’re fielding an abundance of inquiries from concerned tube lovers & musicians about our capacity to produce other tube types like the 12AX7, for example.”

“We are already up to our necks meeting demand for the type 300B vacuum tube. However, our factory was originally designed to sustain production of other tube types,” they add. The company created a page for those interested in receiving more information about those plans for potential supplies of 12AX7, 6L6, EL84, 6H30, KT88, and 274B types. On that page Western Electric predicts: "in light of recent worldwide events, we believe our capacity to do so may become vital to the industry.

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Western Electric tubes? I’m all in. I use WE408 tubes in one of my DAC’s and I love them. High quality tubes made with WE’s capabilities would be an excellent alternative to expensive NOS tubes without the stigma of geopolitical issues.

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