I love tweaks but prefer that they be reversible, as this one is. Over time, as my system changed, some tweaks stayed and some didn’t.
Currently, I like noise reducers that occur just before the component (at the IEC, for example). The trick is to find ones that don’t hype the frequencies and just reduce the noise. Not as easy as it seems, especially given all the variables in different systems; the manufacturer cannot test all of those variables.
Best of all is the look my wife give me as I explain why I’m fussing with a system that already sounds very good. She is right, of course, but this hobby isn’t about the pursuit of logic.
Hopefully I can finish this thread with minimal conflict beyond the inevitable “No soup for you!!!” from one because I’m guilty of the crime of tweak. And perhaps I’ve been remiss in not specifically mentioning how good the DS sounded prior to my influencing its inherent quality. I rank it as one of the top 3 best sounding components I’ve ever personally heard or purchased. It may well prove to be #1 but some of the other highest ranked purchases go back to mid-late 60’s and shipped home from Viet Nam over a period of 2.5 years. Components like a Teac reel to reel, Sansui amp and a truly spectacular sounding pair of Braun ADS 810A speakers. Then there’s the inevitable handicap of long-term hearing loss suffered as a result of my tenure in country. Given those circumstances the DirectStream remains firmly in the top 3 and I suspect if all those other pieces in new condition were played today there’s no doubt the newer technology would easily win out. But you have to understand what went before those old landmark components and what they represented at the time and listened to thru young ears that heard clear & bright.
And rather than report just what I’m hearing with the Rollerblock Jr’s I’m going to sum up with the sound today after the SR Red fuse and my coupling of choice but in all fairness I prefer you have some idea of my system. I am running all Crystal Cable Ultimate power cords with Furutech CF/stainless AC/IEC terminations. Also Crystal Cable Dreamline XLR’s and coax again terminated with F’tech CF. My system today is quite simple: Sonos reclocked to 96/24 into DirectStream into (sorry) DIY-modified W4S Mamp mono blocks (internal wiring and WBT NextGen fine silver posts thru-out). Again Crystal Cables Speaker wires w/Furutech CF terminations. Speakers are a kit from the Klang+Ton Publication in Germany and called; NADA… one of the if not T-H-E most duplicated and popular largish high-end 2-way bookshelf speaker in Europe today. I had Lee Taylor in New York build my custom cabinets. I sent him full sheets of Pau Ferro Rosewood for laminating and Madisound made my custom cross-overs. Seven inch ScanSpeak Illuminator woofers that more closely mimic 10" and ScanSpeak Illuminator Beryllium Tweeters. I assembled everything myself.
Now you’re up to speed on what I have, here is what I hear after 2 simple tweaks. Please don’t interpret anything I might describe as maybe being better today that it was bad or awful before. It wasn’t! Its just better, more refined/defined and readily apparent today. I’m encouraging no one to do anything they are uncomfy with or to follow this lead. Merely expressing my impressions of my project… a labor of love. And I’m incredibly tolerant of ALL philosophies regarding DIY or not.
Here’s what I’ve determined:
Significantly better/greater detail. Less harshness/edginess, increased sound stage air, increased low bass impact/definition. Hugely smoother, more musical sweetness. Better ability to separate & recognize individual instruments and/or performers rather than just sonic parts. Enhanced sound stage that’s dramatically deeper, wider and larger.
I’ll leave it at that because I’d have to reach for more. If I’m reaching then it would be because things are less apparent and harder to discern and don’t instill confidence for claiming them. So I’m giving you impressions that blew me away or were immediately apparent. Of course there is more but beyond what I’ve said but it could be placebo, bias or expectation. These are bona fide, carved in stone results that were available “at-a-glance” for me and that’s as far as I’m comfortable going without compromising my own confidence and objectivity. Any one of those improvements alone would’ve been worth the cost, effort and time involved. Cumulatively they exceed my expectations. But then I had a great base component to work with!
Manoet said
Of course there is more but beyond what I've said but it could be placebo, bias or expectation.
I have always said it does not matter for the end user if it is real or placebo; if you hear it and the improvement is worth the cost it is a worthwhile tweak. It is real to you in any event.
I am a little surprised that more have not chimed in supporting upgrading fuses as many have expressed significant improvement in this simple, non-warranty upsetting, tweak.
Manoet said
Of course there is more but beyond what I've said but it could be placebo, bias or expectation.
I have always said it does not matter for the end user if it is real or placebo; if you hear it and the improvement is worth the cost it is a worthwhile tweak. It is real to you in any event.
I am a little surprised that more have not chimed in supporting upgrading fuses as many have expressed significant improvement in this simple, non-warranty upsetting, tweak.
I totally agree that if I "think" an enhancement is real then it IS real... least to me. But I also felt the direction this thread took almost immediately made me want to be doubly sure I stuck with the most "significant" enhancements since that word specifically was thrown back at me early on. Either way the improvements, even limited to only the most striking, easily justify the relative small cost and meager effort involved. In nigh on 50 years in this hobby, many is the time I've spent many times more for a lot less!
Additionally I also believe due to the direction this thread took early on that many simply don’t want to be part of a thread deemed controversial or adversarial. It forces people to stand out when they would prefer to blend in. This was rapidly morphed into a thread that forced people to pick a side purely based on any comment they might make which necessarily risked further fracas for them. I know I was glad to finish it and move on and knowing what I know today would’ve preferred to have done this tweak in silence, kept the results to myself. Perhaps at some point mentioning I had done it and what the results were. It rapidly became too awkward and icky feeling to participate in, let alone sustain especially for those that don’t have a specific dog in this fight. I felt the need to finish it but certainly don’t feel all warm and runny inside about prolonging it and can’t help but also feel partially responsible for it. I don’t think this thread should be saved or taken up as its my feeling its gone too far south. But I think the case of fuses and other tweaks is wholly worthwhile tho I suspect some might wince a bit before initiating future posts/threads because of what’s happened here. I certainly know I will! I must assume most come here for much the same reasons I do, ie; fun, entertainment and/or to learn. This thread has NOT been fun for me tho I appreciate the support and participation from most that commented. But I truly believe the mere mention of any future tweaks will likely be better-served and less contaminated in a separate, stand-alone post far away from this one.
Manoet said But I think the case of fuses and other tweaks is wholly worthwhile tho I suspect some might wince a bit before initiating future posts/threads because of what's happened here.
I sincerely and absolutely hope not.
Fortunately, we have had many pleasant tweak threads in the past: fuses, vibration control, cables (analog and digital), etc. Negative personal comments such as those posted in this thread are rare on this forum.
I encourage you, and everyone else, to post whatever you find interesting concerning audio. There are many who are interested, even primarily non-tweakers such as myself.
[I tidied up the thread a bit, but left enough for context. I deleted a couple of your posts, which were perfectly appropriate, but only because the posts you were responding to have been blown into bit-history. <img title=“103_gif” alt=“103_gif” src=“http://www.psaudio.com/wp-content/forum-smileys/103.gif” />]
I think you did an incredible job of tidying up and don’t mind forfeiting a few posts in the least! I see what remains as a kinder, gentler, more informative thread that can now foster a dialog if there’s interest. Much more in keeping with the spirit of the forum. Ya done good! Thank you!
I like tweaking. In my salad days I did my share of DIY tweaking which irritated my late wife and I have to admit cheapened the look of the system, which has become a bit more important to me as time goes by.
I did learn in the process that isolation of components and system was very important and cabling was very important and as funds become more available I experimented with and settled on very helpful and attractive products from PS Audio, Herbie’s Audio Lab, Mapleshade, et al.
…Per the nickname, at this point, I’m extremely Green with all this, but keen to learn from anything you care to share.
Oh, I thought you might have been the Champ, Danny Green, a.k.a. the Green Machine. Anyway, Green or not, all welcome here!
Definitely not Danny Green. Being gender correct, doesn’t he punch like a small boy ? Beside, then I’d be older, and from Perth. You know, that place that a few years ago wanted to succeed from the rest of Australia (like Texas ?), but now wants a bigger share of the GST revenue (presumably the plans for succession have been shelved; they tend to fluctuate in exact proportion with the price of Iron Ore in USD / tonne).
But, very Green to all this hi-fi non-business, but with all this information, particularly in this forum, I’m starting to get a useful framework together.
Manoet said
Of course there is more but beyond what I've said but it could be placebo, bias or expectation.
I have always said it does not matter for the end user if it is real or placebo; if you hear it and the improvement is worth the cost it is a worthwhile tweak. It is real to you in any event.
I am a little surprised that more have not chimed in supporting upgrading fuses as many have expressed significant improvement in this simple, non-warranty upsetting, tweak.
Yes, I looked up the product yesterday. And realised it was exactly the type of fuse that I recently replaced in my amps (5 x 20mm; slow blow).
small cost and positive system result, better than usual result
would have preferred to keep it to himself
Hi Manonet,
I must have missed all the unpleasant bit in the middle, so please understand I’m only talking about the tweaking and results.
It’s very very likely insufficient consolation, but I knew nothing about this before. Not the particular product, nor that I could do it without voiding warranty, nor that you and others perceive it to be a genuine improvement, nor that some third party reviews feel the same (e.g. Positive Feedback review).
Later, I’ll definitely be considering the Red Fuse part of your tweak.
So, for whatever its worth, please accept my personal thanks. I’ve spent many hours reading about how to improve my system, trying to work out how things might work. Let alone being handed something like this that I could try and have a reasonable expectation of improving an already great product.
Shame you may not post about such things in the future, but thanks for enlarging my hi-fi world, all the same.
Many have noticed significant improvements with the installation of a simple fuse. They also feel the fuse sounds different with the direction you install it. There have been a number of discussions of swapping fuses.
Unfortunately, the forum’s search function is poor. But you can use Google; for example, enter:
site:psaudio.com fuse
or
site:psaudio.com fuses
or
site:psaudio.com "red fuse"
etc.
These are what I would expect from an improvement in physical isolation. I mentioned the PowerBase but I also use Nordost Sort Kones between the PB and the DS. I do not know precisely what they do although if you look at their cross-sectional diagram, they are essentially a rollerball device. There are a variety of pseudo-scientific explanations for what the rollerball devices do and I am not sure that I buy into most of them. What I do find is that I enjoy the sound more with them in than out. My favorite “explanation” is that rollerballs help to negate the background seismic movements of the earth’s crust! We are talking about movements with a period potentially longer than 1sec, so the idea of “Hz” isn’t even on the menu, unless you think in terms of fractional representation. Of course, I could be wrong…
Well one thing is that low frequency vibrations are much more likely to cause sympathetic vibrations of macroscopic things: wires, PC boards, etc. When wires flex they have minute changes in conductance and other measureable properties (e.g. think about strands sliding across each other or at least the resistance between strands changing with changing pressure.). When PC boards vibrate (or components with legs vibrate) some components generate measureable noise: e.g. electrolytic caps, Most MLCCs (ceramic/surface mount caps). You can tap a MLCC with a pencil and watch the noise on a scope (they are piezoelectric.) So low frequency vibrations cause much higher frequency interference via multiple mechanisms.
There is no question from my experience that isolating components from vibration can make a substantial improvement. But it is yet another area of diminishing returns where a good rack is invaluable, and from there the ROI decreases.
I always thought it was vibration from speaker playback we were treating, but it even works with headphone amps. Hmm . . .
I hear it making a difference in many systems (including mine) and I tried to ameliorate it somewhat in the design of the DS, but in my system I only do some simple relatively inexpensive things: some HSR pucks, shelves with sand in their bases, a few granite slabs (scrap from sink cutouts of granite kitchen counter installations, etc.) on HSR disks… In my old house I put in a weight bearing post in the basement right under the sound system to help firm up the floor where the system was.
Along this line I’m going to venture out on a limb and guess the four outer ~4" diameter “felt-like” adhesive disks under the DS might be at least partially related to the amelioration efforts you mentioned above? I’ve suspected since installing the DS Rollerblocks I left significant improvement on the table by not being able to use alloy retainers inside the DS case that were the same diameter & mass as the upper Rollerblock mating surface attached to underside of the DS case. While I did use the same 7075 aluminum stock that the Rollerblocks are made from there’s a dramatic difference in mass & footprint between threaded retainer & Rollerblock. On other components I was able to match the Rollerblock dimensions/mass exactly and the improvements are much, much more dramatic. However on components where due to physical size limitations I had to use smaller internal threaded retainers those components demonstrate reduced/lesser benefit. Referring to my notes from earlier there appears to be a corresponding, if not downright linear reduction in efficacy the further away I get from threaded retainers matching the diameter/thickness/mass of the mating Rollerblock attached to it. My next step may have to be to temporarily ‘sandwich’ a 7075 alloy spacer of 2" diameter X .375" thickness between the Rollerblock and DS underside (or whatever spacer thickness/diameter when combined with the upper threaded retainer match the Rollerblock weight exactly). Although my gut tells me it needs to be “in” the box but if things improve, I have my answer. And perhaps the answer due to space limitations inside that a more dense, perhaps brass wafer under that alloy retainer may be the way to go. I can achieve the mass easier with a thinner, heavier material like brass that will more easily snick ‘under’ the PCB in the right/rear corner.
I do know from previous attempts that its not purely “mass” as I’ve tried making taller/narrower threaded retainers that weigh exactly the same as the Rollerblock upper half but offer nowhere near the same improvement achieved by retainers that are identical dimensions and mass as the upper Rollerblock half attached to the component underside. I also know these differences disappear entirely when mounting Rollerblocks to MDF over .750" thickness. There’s a certain ‘je na sais quoi’ related to this I haven’t quite nailed down yet. But I’m zeroing in on it!
I’m posting here instead of starting a new thread. Has anyone tried using the Stillpoints Ultra Mini’s under stacked DSD & PWT components?
My DSD (sans feet) sits atop my PWT. The PWT sits on top of a 1" bamboo chopping block (Ikea) on a semi-inflated wheelbarrow innertube. Revised thinking here;
if Stillpoints work best by opening a path to dissipate vibration however small perhaps the best would be place the the Ultra mini’s beneath the PWT not bt the DSD/PWT? Anyone know what the weight limit of the Ultra minis are? I’ve looked around the Stillpoints site and the web but cannot find any information.
I just checked and several sites selling them recommend “up to” 50 pounds per ultra mini. Given the PWT/DS are rated at an identical 22lbs each that’s a total of 44lbs or 14.6lbs each point per set of 3 and 11lbs each point per set of 4 under “both” components and half that if only used under a single component. Featherweight loads for Stillpoints!
No idea which point placement method would work best but swapping them out and listening both ways isn’t a daunting task at just over 20lbs per component.
We are talking about movements with a period potentially longer than 1sec, so the idea of “Hz” isn’t even on the menu, unless you think in terms of fractional representation. Of course, I could be wrong…