Stereo "Phantom" center channel TOO present?

Loudspeakers
21

I feel your pain, I already fought my battles like you and I know it’s a never-ending story. Don’t give up. Sometimes a good night sleeping or a glass of good wine, having a break to watch later from a different perspective the problem, helps a lot!

Good luck, keep us informed!

22

Post the recordings and the format. I’ll give them a listen.

23

That would be my guess…

I think it’s an indicator of your system’s overall (increased) ability to “properly” render a recorded sound stage — something to be celebrated.

That said, if there is a consistent and significant disparity in “energy” across the sound stage thrown up by your system, then I would continue to try and figure out what the cause is.

:man_shrugging:

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24

Have you tried moving the speakers further apart from one another?

25

Depth may be the most crucial factor in your case. When speakers are too close to the wall the mid-range will dominate for sure. However, if you do not have room, then toe out is the next best option. I found widening the space between speakers could make it worse because you still hear pronounced mid-range but surrounding could sound thinner.

Adding diffusers at the reflection points on the sidewall and ceiling will help, so is thick carpet. Good luck in finding a solution.

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26

Given speakers are 7ft apart (measured from the centre of the baffle), wouyld it be possible to test @ listening that’s 7 to 8 ft from each speaker?

27

I like your use of the word “energy”, for that’s really all it is - not resolving or depth or width of stage, just the center moving too far to the front. I spent more time with it last night. I’m really headed toward the “mix” as a problem, but maybe one that most engineers might not be fully aware of - how many people have real rigs that can reveal this? I tried moving the speakers back toward the front of the room (leaving less space behind them) and it might have made a tiny difference in balancing out the phantom center with the rest of the stage, but just as with toe-in/out experiments, not much.

28

Thanks Serhan. I tried 6 ft. between / 6 ft to sitting, 7 ft between / 6 ft to sitting, 7 ft between / 7 ft to sitting, 6 between / 7 to sitting. All are within 2% difference all the way. The thing that is “feeling” the most difference is when I put the speakers directly square to the wall behind (no toe) - it just seems to even things out, but it’s almost counter-intuitive - seems like toe-IN would increase the energy (to use @scotte1’s term) on the outside, but it doesn’t seem to.

29

I couldn’t really have a secondary system anyway. It’s taken lots of spousal negotiation to justify ONE, but I can still be jealous. I almost had a pair of 3As when I started looking at Vandersteens, but the seller ghosted on me. I would love to hear the difference between them and the 2s, but having just paid for this room and new equipment, it’s going to be a while.

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30

OK, I did more listening last night and here are my results. Everything was digital, 96k/24, but I think the mix situation should come out close enough in whichever format above lossy, maybe even streamed:

  • Clandestine Amigo (Octave Records) “On Your Own” from album Temporary Circumstances - pretty much everything from Clandestine Amigo has the center “bump” I’m talking about. It really is a shame for me because the vocals are some of the richest and most present I’ve ever heard, they just seem a little TOO present
  • Shelby Lynne “If I were Smart” from her album Identity Crisis. Also too much center, not as rich as the Amigos, but definitely trying for an intimate voice, so understand why the misers might have goosed her a little, but other tracks on the album, same thing
    • Megan Burt (Octave Records) “Anchor” from the album Shelter - not quite as much of a center bump as Clandestine Amigo, but the same amount of vocal presence. I think it might also have to do with reverb - vocals can be mixed dead center with no reverb or reverb, or the engineer can let a little reverb go to the left and right. This and the Clandestines seem to have no reverb at all, which I like, but might have something to do with that center squeeze.
    • Rebecca Pidgeon “Spanish Harlem” from Chesky Album The Raven. Yeah, a tried-and-true audiophile cliche, but really beautiful vocals and soundstage - this really requires careful volume-setting, but once I got it, was much more balanced than the previous two. The voice isn’t quite as “present”, but present enough to blend well with the soundstage. And there’s some reverb here, but not enough to sacrifice presence.
    • James Taylor “Line 'em Up” from the album Hourglass - this has been my go-to for many years in hearing good midrange and vocal balance. Came across the way it should, but I have to admit I don’t always find JT’s voice as intimate as many others.
    • Mary Black “The Shadow” from the 1989 album No Frontiers - I have love love loved her voice for all the time this album has been out. This whole album does such a beautiful combination of intimacy and vocal blend. The “bump” is there just a little, but damn if I don’t want to hear that presence. I also noticed something in this song I’d never heard before - some very low bass - has to be a bowed acoustic bass that comes in almost imperceptible in a few places.
  • Allison Krauss “Get Me Through December” from the album “A Hundred Miles or More” - OK, this one is the definitive for center channel perfection to my ears, and I think I know why: it IS the way it’s mixed, and the engineers did something few do - and that’s to treat the voice more as PART of the ensemble, not to be in front. And why WOULDN’T they put her in front - it’s HER album and people bought it to hear Allison, right? But if you think about it, by putting her in the center and miking her close, and the fact that she’s singing WORDS - they don’t HAVE to goose her voice. And maybe it also has something to do with her being a bluegrass star - in bluegrass, the banjo, guitar, mandolin, bass are just as important as the vocals. This is a phenomenal discovery for me - it has to do with everything we’ve discussed, but probably more to the mix.

Amazingly I didn’t listen to any jazz yet, but give me a day.

Jon

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31

Very good points, especially because I’ve done a lot of them already - diffusers at reflection points, including ceiling, having the speakers as far from walls as possible, but still wide enough for staging. It’s the thinner outsides that I’m struggling with, but I think I’ve got about the best I can do with the equipment and room I’ve got.

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32

Great suggestions, although I live pretty far from any serious dealers. And the wire phase has never really occurred to me because if they were out of phase, the center would be too weak rather than too strong, unless I’m mistaken, which happens only 3 times a day on average.

33

All over the place - farther apart, closer together, toed in, out, in separate rooms… OK, not that last one maybe.

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34

A very silly idea: have you tried swapping the loudspeakers? The left one on the right and vice versa.
In my case there is a reason, Sonus faber Olympica Nova III in fact have a different design with rear long ports facing each others (towards the center) vs facing outside (towards the walls). Depending on the position they are able to produce more or less energy to the soundstage at the center.
In your case it’s just an experiment probably with no chances of success but you have already done all! On the contrary if you noticed a difference it could open a new way where going investigate deeper.

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35

Homework accepted!

I will go through some of these this evening. It will be good to listen to these selections, many are not in my typical listening catalog. It’s good to step outside our boxes no matter how big we have convinced ourselves of their size :wink:.

36

Thanks much. To be honest, I listen to a much wider range of music that what’s in the genre I listed, but those jumped out at me in relation to the problems first noticed with the Clandestine Amigo recordings. I was looking for intimate voices in the Americana-ish, singer-songwriter-ish area. I’m going to hit some jazz recordings tonight - vocal as well as instrumental and see what I encounter.

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37

Wow, now that’s an interesting idea I’d never thought of, but it might make some sense, especially with such a tight-sized listening area. I’ll give it a shot. Thanks.

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38

I switched them. No difference, which is good. I did stub my toe on the 4000 lb. bases for the Vandersteens. Good thing my room is soundproofed because there are young children nearby.

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39

You may be able to sue Luca. After I listen to your playlist I’ll contemplate it.

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40

Sorry to hear (about your pain) and glad to hear (about results after swapping speakers experiment). You can exclude there is something related to one speaker or its functionality and concentrate elsewhere.

Speaker set up, checked! (Even if I suspect this is the culprit and if I had to face the same problem - as I partially had in effect - I would stay more focused here)
Swapping speakers, checked!
Listening position, checked!
Front wall diffusion, checked!
Side walls reflections, checked!
Different sources/inputs both analog and digital, don’t know if checked…
Different albums recording/mixing, checked!
Break for mental/hearing regeneration, checked!

Mmm…

Don’t give up.

  • In order to exclude room or speaker from the equation did you try playing the same albums listening from headphones? Which differences, if any?

At risk of more legal consequences for myself (thanks Vince!):

  • I would go backwards along the chain… speaker cables (swapping or changing them to find out if something sounds different), interconnects and power cords.
  • Do you use a power plant? Sine wave, multi wave or other settings? Filters or other gear related to current?
  • Last but not least, I would try to investigate on tweaking stuff able to bring different sound (don’t want to call it coloration): different tubes if you use pre or amps that sport them, different fuses if you have the chance.

Your battle is our battle, now.

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