I am considering upgrading my older speakers which have electrolytic caps on a 40 year old crossover. I have used Solen caps on other speakers in the past for other speakers, but I am considering Mundorf Supreme capacitors to upgrade all my capacitors.
Does anyone have any experience on whether the added expense of “higher end” capacitors makes a difference in speaker crossovers? Also, what are your thoughts on bypassing each capacitor with 0.1 uF high end caps?
Asking for your thoughts based on your AUDIBLE results if you have gone in this direction previously? Thanks
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i have a pair of 1970 richard allen pavanes. i have replaced the crossovers and been through several iterations.
clarity cap on the treble was better, but the midrange series capacitor (it’s a simple xover relying on driver interaction in a big way) sounded best with a cheap alcap non polar electroytic, the “posh” capacitors just didn’t sound right.
this suggests to me that a bypass cap on the treble might be good, but again i doubt it would on the mid range.
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What speakers are they, if you don’t mind my asking? Any pictures of the networks?
In general, yes, I would replace all of the electrolytic with film caps, if the values aren’t crazy. Bypassing doesn’t work particularly well in speakers, as compared to certain applications in electronics (like bypassing power supply capacitors).
There are certainly some differences between brands of caps but there is also a certain amount of “cork sniffing” with them too in the community, not that there is anything wrong with that. I just wouldn’t look for absolutes when it comes to these subjective assessments. Within a given construction type, there are certainly differences but not always a better/worse. The mundorf stuff is great, generally, as you mention, but is moderately spendy and your 40 year old speakers might not be worth the dough versus something with newer/better drivers/cabinets etc.
If you feel like the speaker is worth upgrading, it might be also worth look at replacing the resistors (especially in the tweeter network) with something like a mills WW or caddock thick film.
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Never mind. I see Chris already responded
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Bypass caps can make difference and in my experience can take a great speaker to another level of performance. My speakers use Sonicap I in all but the largest values. I use Erse for the big values. I like the Sonicaps because they’re pretty neutral, detailed and not fatiguing. I recently bypassed my tweeter caps with 0.1uF Miflex KFPM copper caps and it was like turning a focus knob. Definitely recommend. You can get both from www.soniccraft.com
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I’ve had the same experience with adding Miflex bypass caps. It’s as though the circuit takes on the flavor of the Miflex (for the better) over the Sonicap. It’s easy to do and reverse if not what one likes.
I also agree with the suggestion of Mills resistors, particularly to replace sand cast. These parts aren’t all that expensive either.
But yeah, it’s definitely a try and listen and tweak situation. There is no way anyone can tell you what it will do to the sound unless they have precisely the same speakers, gear and room.
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The speakers are ESS AMT 1A’s with Heil Air motion tweeter/mid unit. There is one 12" woofer which also handles part of the mids…The low pass is a 75 uF for the woofer, the Heil Transformer has 26uF and 45uF caps… My choices are Mundorf Oil, Mundorf Supreme and Janztzen Superior Z caps. If you have a suggestion for the big 75uF cap that is less expensive but is very good, please suggest an alternative…
So, your suggestion is not to go with 0.1uF bypasses on the caps? Your preference in caps overall is appreciated. ( I had to look up the definition of cork sniffer to understand what you meant… I get it now)
Thank you Chris
It’s my understanding that bypass caps mess with phase and/or transients due to the fact that they have faster charge and discharge times compared to the cap they’re bypassing. @Chris_Brunhaver is this correct? TIA
A 0.1uF cap won’t cause any problems. Also, with high value caps you can parallel smaller caps but they need to be the same value. So if you have a 45uF cap a couple of 22uF caps along with the 0.1uF bypass will do the same job without messing up the sound. Focus on the tweeter caps. Caps that are parallel with the speaker are not in the direct signal path and therefore will not need an expensive cap but it should still be a film cap.
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This guy has done extensive testing on different caps for crossovers.
I’m currently using Sonicaps bypassed with Miflex KPCU copper caps with very good results. I’m currently working on building a new set of speakers with crossovers that used the Miflex caps as the main caps with Dueland JDM tinned copper foil bypass caps, but the largest caps needed in this crossover are 20uF. Still, this requires two parallel larger-thsn-beer-can sized 10uF caps.
You might also want to take a look at the inductors. If they use iron core inductors, you will definitely benefit by switching to air core, or better yet, copper foil inductors.
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Thanks , will check out the Humble Cap site for comparisons. I wonder if Chris Brunhaver would share what brands/models of caps he uses in his own home crossovers. I have to assume he would use caps which provide the best sound based on his hearing. Just asking ???
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Hello Chris,
Not having changed anything in my old IRS Betas (apart from re-gluing crossover components to the MDF board) I am wondering about restoring the crossovers.
My left speaker sounds a bit muffled (hope it ain’t my ears). Maybe it’s the crossover, the L-EMIMs or something else in the chain.
What do you suggest? Is there a way to test; a “dummies” guide?
When I put @paul ‘s companion disk and he says “the sound of my voice is coming from…” the tone of his voice is different left vs right channel.
If I have to restore, I want to get the best performing components but I don’t care to “sniff corks” (great analogy).
What do you suggest?
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Have you tried swapping speakers? Swapping cable channels? This can help identify bad components.
Getting your ears checked is always a good idea even if it’s just to clean them out. I was losing highs in my left ear and then my doctor scraped out a big plug of ear wax and everything was back to normal.
Yes, capacitors and resistors can and do drift off their values. If you can find the crossover schematic then you can work on rebuilding the crossover.
All caps should be film and foil type caps as they discharge faster and more consistently than electrolytics. For larger values you can parallel smaller caps to reach the original value but make sure they’re split evenly and not mismatched.
Inductor coils should be as large gauge wire as you can afford. Ideally 16awg or larger. For tweeters and mids they should be air core. Woofers benefit from air core as well but you can get away with an iron core in this circuit. Coils should be mounted at 90° angles to each other and spaced as far apart as possible to avoid interaction.
Resistors should be noninductive.
A circuit board is not necessary. Hard wiring components point to point is ideal.
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Swapped speakers problem moves with the speaker.
Spent some time cleaning the l-pad waiting for it to dry completely and will try again
No caps look swollen or leaking. Ordered a cap tester to check each cap.
This is what I’m working with:
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I would recommend getting a parts express DATS V3 (in place of the cap tester you got). It can test capacitors, inductors, and test the impedance curve of the speaker.
I would check both speakers and see if they match.
Also, i would pick up a MiniDSP umik-1, which is handy not only for troubleshooting but also integrating subwoofers etc.
I would get it setup with REW and test the response of both speakers (independently) at the listening position and we can see if there are any differences and in what frequency range.
This isn’t a simple project unfortunately.
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Thanks Chris!
On it! Lets see what I determine.
I agree with Chris as far as bypass caps in crossovers. The function of bypass caps in power supplies, et. al, is quite different from what a capacitor is doing in a crossover. There’s a LOT of intricacies of what’s going on in a crossover that affects other things like phase, etc., so compared to why one would bypass in a power supply, it just does not have the “advantages” in a crossover circuit.
REPLACING electrolytic caps with film caps is another story though, but it can get pretty pricey with the big values one would commonly see in a crossover.
My $0.02 is tempered by the fact that I’ve never stayed at a Holiday Inn.
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Try a duelund JDM silver or Cu/Sn 0.01 uf for the tweeter as a bypass and experience that duelund capacitors are in a class of their own. I’m amazed at how realistic and natural it sounds now. I was so excited that I replaced some very high quality MKP’s like Mundorf supreme SGÖ, Audyn pur copper with a duelund. A Milflex kpcu is also quite nice and comes quite close to the duelund. Mundorf, on the other hand, is canned hi-fi sound. Such capacitors are hard to find in finished speakers, and only at a hefty surcharge. Kaiser Akustik does it without compromise, but also openly says that it is expensive. Housing made of armored wood, duelund capacitors and silver cables from Kondor… nothing more is possible.
NOS capacitors that work well are the highly praised Röderstein KP 1832. It provides more air, but sometimes I find it to be a bit cool in tone.
My current NOS favorite is a Röderstein KP 1336-1, which I have as 0.017 uf. It ensures more details, precision and audibility without affecting the timbre.
The sound image has a sharper focus and everything appears clearly defined. I’m currently testing these in parallel with my capacitors in the midrange.
C’mon you guys… by the time you remove your old high end caps like my Mundorf Evo caps and then insert your ELITE caps, are you really gonna make an obvious audible difference Look at Chris B. remarks regarding substituting capacitors… if Overkill is your thing and spending a few extra bucks, go ahead, but ultimately, are you really gonna hear a difference if blindfolded? My vote is NO. Not trying to stir things up, but past a certain age , your hearing is really on the downslope… so if it is in your interest to just put in higher end caps for bragging rights …go for it… just my not so humble opinion