Tour de France: anyone keeping up?

@dancingsea Have you ever been in a bike race? It’s quite chaotic and it’s impossible to keep an eye on every single rider. You keep an eye on some of the key rivals and rely on information passed through the peloton via chalkboard or via radio for everything else.

It has nothing to do with stupidity… nor is it possible to “ride hard the whole way”. Cycling is very much a team and a tactical sport.

Now with that said, Kiesenhofen did deserve the win. She got into a breakaway from the race start (which is not easy btw… you really need to attack HARD to get away) and then dropped all her fellow breakaway rides one by one until she was the only one standing. The peloton lost track of her and that’s why you didn’t see a concerted efforts by any one team (or a couple of teams) trying to catch her at the end.

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I know your comment wasn’t directed to me, but I thought I’d respond because it reminded me of the very first race I competed in, where I finished third. I was actually shocked to learn I finished that high. It wasn’t a long race in total, but each lap was long enough to lose sight of competitors easily, and I quickly fell off the lead group, which I could have sworn was more than 2 riders. All I knew was I beat the one rider I was with to the line at the finish. I was totally unprepared for that to result in my getting to climb, wobbly-legged, onto a hay-bale podium where I received a glass candy jar with the name of the sponsor etched in it.

Maybe there were more than 2 ahead of me and some dropped out with mechanical failures, or they just quit. I have no idea to this day. My point is just that you’re absolutely right - the “fog of war” sets in and you tend to focus only on what you can see and what you believe is true, and that’s often very limited and sometimes wrong.

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I have raced and even in a lowly CAT 4 road race we had a motor cycle with a chalk board showing the time gap to the leaders. It’s mind-boggling they did not have motorcycles showing the gap for both the breakaway and peloton.

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Somehow marathons, triathlons, ultramarathons and every other long distance endurance sport I can think of have managed to go forward without radios, etc.

The problem is pro cycling is organized by pathetic men who have been so devoted to cheating for so long that they’ve made some of the cheating part of the rules. It’s a sorry state of affairs.

The Olympics are doing it the right way by maintaining sport integrity. Have a starting line, a finishing line, and see who gets there first. No monkey business.

Cycling is a team sport only in the most bizarre sense. They have a team “support” an individual winner. Otherwise known as a team helping one rider cheat.

In every other sport I know of, either a team competes and wins as one, or it’s an individual sport that determines who the best individual is without on course help from others.

That’s my stance and I’m sticking to it :sunglasses:

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Soooo strange then you read and post on a Tour de France thread based on your lack of interest in procycling.

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@nortonkp so understandable that you demonstrate your lack of understanding about sport integrity on a thread about pro cycling :joy:

I’m joking. I’m an avid lifelong spirts fan and simply have a different opinion than you regarding the present day state of pro cycling.

It’s ok to have different opinions. And seeing something differently does not mean I don’t understand pro cycling. It only means my discernment differs from yours.

To me, pro cycling is structured in a way that undermines true competition. And done so in a way that differs from literally every other sport. The Olympics gets it and won’t let those imbeciles get away with their usual nonsense.

Peace.

Team tactics are one of the things that makes road cycling interesting for me. “Chess on wheels” as they say. If you think they should only give the gold to the person who can put out the most watts then only watch the ITT. I find that a bit boring. YMDV I guess.

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@danm Like audio, beauty is the eye of the beholder. Every team sport I can think of works for the good of the team. The team wins or loses together, as one. Pro cycling has created a very unusual sort of team in which the members work primarily for the glory of one individual on the team. Should that individual win, they go on the podium alone and receive the coronation. Tadej was the winner of the Tour de France, not the UAE team. I can think of no other team sport that is structured in this feudalism type manner in which the serfs work for the glory of their landlord. It’s a very peculiar type of structure. An arbitrary structure.

As for the chess comparison, the equivalent would be chess matches in which the participants are in radio contact with several grandmasters during the match and receive advice on each move. That’s what the radios and computers provide cycling. I’m all for strategy and chess like maneuvering, but why not let it be the individual athlete’s strategy rather than relying upon a stable of phone a friends with satellite views of the race and computers to dictate how its run?

In the USA a large number of people love professional wrestling and consider it a great sport. It matters little to them that the whole thing is phony. For me, it’s not real sport at all. Because of how professional cycling is structured, I’d place it somewhere in between American professional wrestling and true sport.

I say this as a lifelong fan of cycling. I’ve watched every Tour for decades. And as this thread shows, have lots of ideas of how to make it better. I still think allowing spectators to shoot arrows at the riders is pure brilliance :joy:

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I’m not sure I completely comprehend your point on the team aspect of it. The race has a best team category, and even if they didn’t, all team members share in the winnings of the individual GC classification. I’m not sure how else a cycling race could be configured. Would you want entire teams to have to cross the finish line together, or would you banish teams altogether?

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Agreed. Seems any form of team tactics is viewed as cheating. It should be like a running marathon! So better rule out lead out trains for sprinters. Mørkøv was talked about almost as much as Cav this year, but apparently the whole team should be in green because that’s how it’s done in other sports? No drafting too.

Let’s just stop all cycling that’s a team sport. We would be left with a handful of track events and the time trial. No MTB, no BMX, absolutely no road race.

Seriously, you might not like it, but cycling IS a team sport. The days where one strong rider could win the entire event on the merits of their strength is long gone.

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I think it’s a pretty common perception that cycling doesn’t involve tactics - you just get on your bike and pedal, right? Most would consider watching cycling for several hours the most boring activity imaginable. When I first started racing a simple scenario was laid out that proved to me how important team tactics can be:

Q: A breakaway has 3 riders, 2 from the same team. What do you do?
A: One rider from the team with 2 riders attacks. The solo rider has 2 options - chase or give up and watch that rider solo to victory. So he/she chases. The other team rider sits in and gets a free ride, saving 20%+ of their energy because of the draft. If the solo rider catches up then the second team rider attacks. Same decision for the solo rider. This continues until either the solo rider gives up or you get to the sprint with the team riders having used less energy and so fresher at the finish.

This might be considered unfair on the solo rider, but that’s part of the sport.

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I have seen many races where the solo rider did win.

Of course , the solo rider can, and at times, wins.

This is not @danm 's point.

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I hear @danm, yes plans and tactics help. I love to see the unexpected events unfold and even upsets. Kudos to those whose execute their tactics successfully.

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My point is that cycling is a very weird form of team sport. Yes, there is a team classification at the Tour, but it’s a side show. The “winner” of the Tour this year was Tadej, an individual winner. That’s who will be remembered. Very few will remember which team won, or even that it wasn’t Tadej’s.

Take professional basketball. The big prize goes to the team that wins. They also honor the best player in the form of a MVP, but the MVP is a side note.

The equivalent in cycling would be if the NBA gave it’s biggest champ prize this year to Giannis Antetokounmpo. When the Milwaukee Bucks won, Giannis would be seen as the champ, because he was the best player, and the rest of the team received a side prize in the team classification. That’s how the NBA, and just about every other pro team sport would look, if we applied the pro cycling structure.

The winner of the Super Bowl this year would’ve been Tom Brady, with his team getting a little side trophy. The same can be applied to baseball, futball (soccer), whatever, take your pick.

Just because something has been done a certain way for a long time doesn’t make that something intelligent. Just because pro cycling has created a system in which a team works largely for the glory of one team member does not mean it must be that way. No Greek God from on high has come down and declared that pro cycling must be structured the way it is.

It’s structured the way it is because it allows a given star rider to receive a competitive advantage within the rules. The success of the best rider is augmented by how good his teammates are. The minions work for the glory of their particular MVP, and get a little side trophy if he, or she, wins. It’s all very bizarre. But it has been done that way for so long, that most accept it as normal.

Have you ever pondered that nature of this world? About how much we all accept as normal which is actually utterly bizarre when looked at from the outside?

If the current state of pro cycling is your thing, then hallelujah, you have the sport you desire.

My suggestion is that cycling is arbitrarily structured in an exceptionally unintelligent fashion that undermines the very nature of honest competition. The team and technological components have created a very synthetic sport, a weakened sport, with far less interesting races. And it does not have to be that way. It can be more pure if the powers at be wished it. But they don’t because they are unimaginative and lack vision.

Purifying pro cycling in no way undermines the tactical component. It would make genuine tactics that much more important. As we saw in the women’s Olympic road race, the entire peloton had been so dumbed down by years of radios that they literally didn’t bother to count that 3 riders went way out in front, and only 2 came back. That shows how radios have taken tactics AWAY from the riders and put it in the hands of computers run by race support staff that know precisely where each rider in the entire race is located, and at what pace who must go in order to catch them where. That is not tactics. That is pathetic.

And the peloton could’ve asked their team cars in the Olympics, but did not. The team cars could’ve informed the riders directly, but did not. The whole charade was exposed because of the purity of the Olympics. The Dutch silver medalist said it best afterwards, “I feel so stupid”. Yes, that’s about right.

For me, if cycling is a team sport, then make it a team sport. The grand winner of the Tour de France would be the team that does the best. And have a MVP within that team if you like.

Or, make it an individual sport in which one rider is crowned the champ. Like tennis, or golf. But in so doing, let the rider make their own way through the course without direct help. Like marathons, or triathlons.

As it’s currently constructed, pro cycling is a largely individual sport in which tons of cheating is allowed within the rules. What great road races the Olympics provided. Carapaz won the individual race gold primarily based upon his own merits. The “teams” largely self destructed. Tadej could manage no better than 3rd when all the cheating was removed.

And bravo to Anna Kiesenhofer for sticking it to the man. When the playing field was made level, she beat the best riders in the world. A tiny doctor of mathematics who retired from cycling 5 years ago.

It’s amazing what can happen when you remove institutionalized cheating :joy::crazy_face::sunglasses::camel:

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I can only conclude that you simply do not understand the sport of cycling… Carapaz didn’t have a team, so his only chance was to gamble and get in to the right breakaway. He sat in most of the day and then pounced when the right opportunity presented itself. But if he didn’t jump when he did, there would be no way for him to bring the breakaway back. If he had a team, then they could do that for him, leaving him fresh enough to contest the win.

The team element of cycling has been around since the inception of the sport. In the early days, it was national teams which then later became trade teams. A team is composed of quite a few riders, not only the ones you see in the TdF for example. You then bring the ones that as a TEAM can get the win. There’s no way anyone can do this on their own. And the suggestions that you should abolish teams would be the same as abolish cycling as a sport. In the peloton, it’s truly chess on wheels. Trust me, I’ve been there (not on the TdF level, but well in elite level).

Teams in cycling is the basis of the sport, not cheating.

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I thought you just said Carapaz did!
Now I’m confused.

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If Carapaz had a team supporting him, third might have been first—unless the “backroom deals, the cigar chomping cycling power brokers, the promise of a turkey on their birthdays”, ya know…

I suggest you read my post more carefully. First, to reiterate, just because I have a different view on something does not mean I don’t understand that something. It just means I see it differently. My post is steeped in sophisticated understanding, albeit one with which you disagree. Which is totally fine, I’m not seeking agreement.

I did not suggest abolishing teams. I suggested either making it a team sport, or an individual sport rather than blurring the two together for all the reasons I spelled out above.

As for there being “no way anyone can do this on their own”, I agree, when every team is cheating, there’s no way to do it on one’s own unless you cheat as well. The same could be said in the 1990’s about drugs, there was no way anyone could win unless they also doped. Just because there’s no way to do something because everyone else is cheating, doesn’t then make it all right.

But as the Olympics JUST demonstrated, both the men and women’s champion did so without a team. Carapaz had one team member who did not factor in the race. And Anna was utterly on her own. They could “do this on their own” because the structure of Olympic cycling substantially reduces the cheating you love so much!

However, as the Olympics have demonstrated, when the institutionalized cheating is substantially reduced, when the playing field is level, then all sorts of interesting things can happen.