Why does Audirvana Studio sound so much better than JRiver Media Center?

[tedsmith]

Unless I misunderstand your request, foobar2000’s auto playlists can do exactly as you describe. Also FWIW I sometimes randomize a playlist, but foobar2000 also has a plugin that can generate random short playlists from rules as well and as one track finishes playing another gets added to the list… (it actually more configurable than that, but you get the idea.) There’s also a plugin which lets you use SQL queries

I have auto playlists like:
Music never played.
Most played tracks.
Recently added
Recently played
The last 100 things I played.
Tracks that have been played exactly three times (I like that better when I’m listening casually so I don’t play something I haven’t heard yet when I’m not listening alertly.
Christmas music
Redboook tracks I haven’t yet run the replaygain analyzer on and/or that I haven’t renamed the tracks to match the metadata and/or other house keeping things I like to do when I first add new music.
…

I think you can do the same in JRiver MC, but I like foobar2000 so much better I haven’t learned JRiver MC’s query syntax.

[bruce-in-philly]

Ted knows the foobar tools way better than I do, obviously. But, you note something about song selection regarding mood. That is a little different and requires some sort of qualifier, or metadata if I am not mistaken.

Maybe clarify your desire.

Regarding the USB driver… I pulled it down from the PS Audio website years ago… In foobar, if you go the long way… preferences, playbak output devices… you will see a whole list of Windows junk… which you can have foobar hide to make selection easier. My PS Audio driver presents itself as “Speakers (2-PS Audio USB Audio 2.0) [exclusive]” This is odd as my last computer it presented itself differently. Odd.

Maybe Ted can help here.

Regardless, you can play PS Audio’s test files to present a message (at least on my MK I) showing if it is runnin bit-for-bit through the player and WIndows system.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

[Downunderer]

Hi Bruce and Ted,

Thank you both for your help - immensely .

I am pretty sure my USB driver is wrong and we all know how hard it is to get rid of bad Windows USB drivers . . .
I have “installed” the newest one that I could find from their website which seemed to do the uninstall for me, then rebooted, and then installed. But no change.

There is a sister driver offerred in the same ZIP “ASIO” but the notes imply that that is for older DACs. I have not found any written support for getting DSD/DSF files to work.

I think my best option now is to give Foobar a try knowing that that is known to work - Yay!! - and I am all for open software initiatives too.

Re Foobar:
Ted, great to know that auto-playlists are supported!
I love random too, although I am pretty sure that MM uses the Shuffle algorithm so that all tracks are played at random but only once before starting again. Nice.
Love your Tracks that have been played exactly three times idea - very clever!

Bruce, if you still have those configuration notes at hand for newbe’s by chance that will be a big help for me please, as I would like to get this demo unit back to the shop in 30 hrs time for their Monday opening.

Re MM:
Mood is a standard field in .flac files IIANM, and yes, I add the values during my initial audition of any new tracks. MM allows for multiple Moods to be listed.

Re PS Audio’s test files for bit-perfect:
Yes, I had found them and my current setup does turn on the (prominent blue square with a B inside it) successfully. But it is a PCM signal so not really proving anything for DSD/DSF files.

Finally, I must say that I am a virgin at things audiophilia, so please don’t assume that I am on the same page as you folks. I can cope with configuration type stuff though from experience in other applications but I am an old bloke now and new things have to be beaten into me, LOL.

Thanks again . .

EDIT Seven hours later:
I cracked it today. We heard our first DSD256 file over USB on the DSD Mk2.

Wow! Our Lounge room suddenly became alive! We were in the concert hall!

And on my birthday too - what a present!

JRiver did it easily; and I am yet to persevere with Foobar2000, but I intend to when Bruce (and others?) can send me some installation/configuration tips .

[Downunderer]

Thanks Bruce, they arrived safely, will report back after trying the procedures.
Much appreciated.

Q1: I’d like to use the ‘Portable installation’ so that I can move the external ‘music SSD’ to another computer and have everything at my fingertips and right up to date.
Any variations to the instructions?

Your email address is not allowed by my primary address (for sending), pls watch out for another similar attempt. Thanks .

[Downunderer]

A1: The answer from Bruce was to use drive C: rather than to try a ‘Portable’ installation as his profile is not a ‘Portable’ one (the folder structure is quite different for Portable).

That’s OK, I followed his brief instructions and music began flowing as soon as I chose a PS Audio output driver from the drop down box Bruce provided. Bravo! Bruce’s layout looks really functional and neat too.

Q2: How to change to bit-perfect output so that the DAC can be exploited in all of it’s glory? [At the moment the DAC display is showing PCM specs so somewhere the .dsf file is being converted before it gets there].

Anyone else got this far and found the steps to the answer?
Bruce?
Being a Downunderer, it is time for me to sleep now and leave you all to it! .
Thanks. See you tomorrowtime.

[bruce-in-philly]

Make sure the windows volume control is at 100% else windows dicks with the stream. I think you can right click on the little speaker in your system tray and select Sound Settings, then select the PS Audio device, make sure spacial sound is OFF. The Format on my system is 16bit 48000 HZ (I did not select this, this was the default)… this is a bit of a mystery to me as it passes bit for bit.

BTW, I have posted a question to PS Audio for a DSF formated file to test bit-for-bit and did not get a reply.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

[Downunderer]

Yes, I have found their two test files for PCM:
Support > Downoads > Tests and Guides >
DirectStream Stereo Bit Perfect Test 24b192
and
DirectStream Stereo Bit Perfect Test 24b96

When successful a small bright blue square with a capital B inside it lights up on the DSD Mk2 DAC whilst it is playing (there is no music to be heard though) from the Windows music player application.

Agreed, it would be appreciated if they were to add other (.dsf) test files for DSD64, 128, and 256 since they are supported from a USB cable.

Official PS Audio supported instructions for JRiver and Foobar2000-v2 would be very much appreciated too.

Anyone else currently trying to get this all going?

[Downunderer]

Hey Bruce,
Curious. How do you know that your DSD files are passing bit-perfect to the DAC? I have been assured by PSA that we can trust the DSD Mk2 DAC’s display reading! When my JRiver trial eventually worked, DSD256 was displayed and the sound was spectacular. Now, from Foobar, it displays a PCM format and sounds flat by comparison.

Also, in your beaut configuration, you have two PSA drivers, one has exclusive appended to the name. Which are you using? I have tried both - flat sounding each time.

Love your Foobar layout by the way, even the fonts and colours are perfect - many thanks Bruce.

[tedsmith]

The BitPerfect test is designed to test the hardware/software path. If the PCM BitPerfect test passes then DoP will work fine. AFAIK if the BitPerfect test passes then if Native DSD doesn’t get an error it will be fine as well.

I didn’t think about a Native DSD BitPerfect since we couldn’t do Native DSD when I designed the original BitPerfect test. I’ll think about a DSD pattern that could work without doing horrible things to your speakers…

[tedsmith]

I’m running both foobar2000 v1… and v2 with the current foo_out_asio+dsd and foo_input_sacd from
Super Audio CD Decoder - Browse Files at SourceForge.net
To install these for foobar2000 v2 you can follow any instructions you find for foobar2000 v1.

FWIW don’t worry about playing Native DSD if DoP works for you. The first thing the DS does it convert Native DSD to DoP as the bits come in…

[Downunderer]

Thanks again for helping us Ted.

Another test for DSD raw transfer would be a good idea if you can get a chance.

I can attest that I have seen a huge improvement in the sound once I fluked the settings to be right (using JRiver), then I looked and DSD256 was in the little Mk2 display - the first time it has been seen! And my new M1200s haven’t even arrived yet!

I fear that many people could be stuck at this point where a PCM spec is displayed (it turns out to simply be the spec selected in the PS Audio USB driver . . which does NOT even list any DVD specs), and inadvertently had computer converters intervening somehow.

But ultimately, there are very few players (in common use) that can really do bit-perfect raw transfer to an external DAC, it is in PS Audio’s interest to get the installation methods published and supported and simplied as best as is possible, at least for Foobar2000-v2 as it seems to have good repore with existing Mk2 users in this thread.

Without this, then people like me will accidently just be listening to low-res when compared to what the DAC can truly do by getting the drivers and program configuration right.

Thanks again Ted.

[bruce-in-philly]

Regarding foobar being “flat sounding”… It could be that it is not passing bit-for-bit, but your other player could be NOT passing bit-for-bit. Sometimes, distortions or other artifacts can sound good, or sometimes when played back-to-back, brighter or more forward or whatever can actually sound better.

Examples of this is classic tube sound. I know my tube system is distorting the sound but I love it. Another example is back when stereo stores displayed walls of speakers, makers boosted the bottom and top ends of their speakers because when A-B’d, they would “jump off the shelves” and the more natural, acurate speaker would sound dead in comparison… guess which speaker sold more?

Peace
Bruce in Philly

[Downunderer]

Good points thanks Bruce.

I will get a chance to review the results more carefully over the next few hours (even though just with an old standby Denon AMP until my M1200s arrive).
Jessica has kindly given me access to a variety of files types of the same track(s) to help me with this project.

I’ll be comparing Foobar2000 v2.1.2, JRiver, and MediaMonkey Pro/Gold.

I’ll be sure to report back here for any lurkers who need this info too (and future readers of course).

Thanks again.

[Downunderer]

Hi Bruce and Ted,

Hours of testing done today with the multiple Octave Records .dsf files mixed with PCM variants.

It seems that something is making them all sound the same - from all three shortlisted music players. Maybe it’s my old amp and speakers? Or ears? I will try to get to the retailer tomorrow to connect to their demo M1200 and Aspen speakers, and repeat a subset of the tests to remove those possibilities.

MediaMonkey is back on my shortlist because of their interest in helping and also because so far the (poor imo) results are really much the same for all three programs. JRiver is slightly better simply because at least it does show DSD256 or DSD64 in the Mk2’s display when playing those files. But all of them have the same fault that made me look away from MediaMonkey: the Mk2 display is not proving the transfer to be bit-perfect.

I found a setting in JRiver that allowed all file types to happily exist in one playlist: Tools > Options > Audio > Settings > DSP & Output format > Output format > Output encoding = default [4x DSD in native format]. When I changed it to ‘NONE’, the mp3s, various .flac files, and .wav files happily played from the one playlist, and displayed ‘non accurate’ PCM specs on the DAC’s display, just like MediaMonkey and Foobar2000 do at this stage.

Thanks for your interest. Any more thoughts?
Kind regards to all.

[joe-appierto]

Just as a point of information unless you want JRiver to change the output format, it should be set to None.

[tedsmith]

Have you read the How To for the BitPerfect test?

How to run a bit perfect test with DirectStream

[Downunderer]

Thanks Joe.

[Downunderer]

Wow - that is a gem of a document. Yes, I see 24bits when I play a 16bit .flac from a CD rip!

Thanks Ted, I’ll have a really good look through that tomorrow. Can you see anything to be wary of because it is ten years old? [I’m working with the DirectStream PerfectWave DAC Mk2].

[tedsmith]

No. Exactly where some of the options are in JRiver MC or foobar2000 are a little different, but the real thing is to be aware of the issues in the OS, and things like ReplayGain, the three different volume controls in JRiver, and other features that various players provide which might alter the bits.

[tedsmith]

I guess I should add that the DS Mk II behaves like the DS Mk I except for new features like the grounding options, but even they default to match the DS Mk I. The only missing feature of the DS that comes to mind is that the Mk II doesn’t distinguish between DoP and DSD on the display, but DSD works well no matter which way DSD bits show up at the DAC.