Will SQ Improve with BHK PRE

Gain is Good.

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That’s the bottom line for me: my system needs the gain. If the DSD had more gain in its output I could do without a preamp. But my system needs the gain my preamp allows. And “riding the gain” between my DSD, my preamp, and the gain controls on my Monoblocks allows me to tailor a very dynamic, rich sound–each component “being all it can be.”

In my experience, a preamp is not about gain or switching or attenuation. It’s about the bloom, the sound enhancement that I’ve enjoyed from a good quality active preamp. The preamps that I’ve used all have their particular sound character that I choose not to be without. They all added a pulse and body temperature to the musicians spinning around in the grooves.

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Nice “analogy”.

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A bit like having only had relations with one person, and it wasn’t very good (they were admittedly passive), so then you chose to remain celibate. Not the person I’d ask for an opinion in the matter.:stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Yes, it can be messy. You can fall in love, only to get your heart broken. But to then choose to never love again?!?

Yes, there may be (Horrors!) Distortion involved. The chaste and faint of heart should look away at this point.

Not all distortion is bad.

What’s more, with any decent preamp, the net positive effect on the sound is far greater than any sound one tends to perceive as “distortion”.

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Spot on. When I added the BHK preamp, it breathed life into the music, and expanded the soundstage in all directions.

Throughout most of my audiophile life I chose not to use a preamp, as the results were much better without one. There were only two instances where that was not the case, well three if I count the BHK. One, when I owned a CAT preamp, and the other when I borrowed a $20,000 Accuphase preamp.

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Well I started by referring to PS Audio’s advice that you don’t need one, advice I followed.

Integrated amplifiers have ruled the roost in the UK since the 1970s. I only had a pre-amp to manage two phono inputs from my two-arm turntable. There aren’t many phono pre-amps that have two inputs, the Cyrus Signature has four, PSA has two, there are a few others, Devialet can be programmed for two.

The PSA website says this about the BHK Pre:

Preamplifiers play a critical role in any separates audio system, strategically positioned between sources of music: CD players, phono preamps, DACs, tape recorders and tuners – and your power amplifier – the preamp serves essential roles of control and isolation. Control is simple in concept, but extraordinarily difficult to design in an acoustically transparent manner. Control duties such as input switching, volume, balance, and amplification can place unwanted acoustic thumbprints on the music if not designed with extraordinary care. The challenge in any design is to do as little damage to music’s purity as possible. What our Master Designer, BHK, has built will not only stand the test of time, but represents one of the finest musical instruments ever built to honor the music."

So given @karthick only has one source, the best way “to do as little damage to music’s purity as possible” would be to use the DSD DAC’s perfect volume control.

His speakers are quite sensitive at 90db or more, so even the smallest Krell would seem to be plenty powerful enough and they are meant to be very engaging amplifiers.

You are leaving out Paul’s conclusion “We know that inserting a certain quality of preamplifier between the DAC and amplifier improves performance.”

The experiences of many here also find this to be true.

I suggest you actually try it before opining.

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/can-you-make-something-better-than-it-is/

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Wow, how rigid!

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I think that this (no preamp) is one of those things that gets into the realm of believing in a theoretical concept (e.g. “less gear must be better”, “if it measures better it will sound better”, “straight wire with gain”, etc.) vs. listening and subjective experience with the sound of various pieces of gear in your own system, and the resulting synergy or lack thereof.

FWIW, I’m personally not particularly a fan of the BHK Pre’s sound. So to bring it back to the OP’s question, I’d generally say - leaving aside the need for multiple source capability - “Yes - get a pre for improved SQ, though the BHK may or may not be the one you want.”

I also think it possible that the Roon/Nucleus and/or the Krell affect/color the sound as much or more than a good pre. (I have the former and used to have one of the latter) So the same or less money could potentially be spent changing one or both of those to good effect.

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A small diversion… my real situation outlined below

outside of bhk preamp what other preamps fit the certain quality of preamp when inserting between the dac and bhk 250? its not that i dont want one but curious

I recall Paul being impressed with the Aesthetix Calypso, the preamp which started this line of inquiry.

@badbeef is correct; bias and prejudice as to what “should be true” gets in the way of crediting actual experience.

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If I had only one source component, and it included its own level control, I might be tempted to try living without a preamp. But I’ll never have only one source. I’ll likely have spinning discs (aluminum and vinyl) for as long as I live, and possibly streaming as well. I doubt I’ll ever have terrestrial radio or tape again in my lifetime, but I can’t see choosing one of the others to the exclusion of the other two. So my biggest need is switching and control, and my preamps have been chosen for a combination of flexibility, sound and budget. I’ve had four in my lifetime (GAS Thalia, Apt Holman, Adcom GFP-710, and the SGCD), and I’d say two-and-a-half of them were big successes in meeting those needs.

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In both cases for the DAC and BHK Pre I quoted in full from the Technology page on the product website - not the link you posted.

So that’s PSA’s official product advice, which I followed in a one-source system, using the PSA DAC directly into a power amplifier.

So PSA say it should be transparent, and do what a pre-amp should do, but if it adds distortion in a pleasureable way, then so be it. No one seems to want to admit it, but that’s how it is.

I’ve heard demonstrations with “unnecessary” pre-amps, I remember one with the Audio Research Ref 6SE and another with the Soulution 525. The demos were by leading manufacturers (not those brands).

Preamplifiers used to be called control units and the gain helped before it ceased to be an issue. Why people still use them with a single source is, as I said, just a complete mystery. What can two gain stages do that one can’t?

I have owned a Hattor passive, and also briefly had a Townshend Allegri here, also passive. Both were completely transparent and let the music flow, the latter into ESL63.

Steven, you cannot claim ignorance; you are well aware of the “a preamp can make it sound better” findings and discussions on this forum. I am willing to bet you actively participated in them. :slight_smile:

And no, it is not a given a preamp “adds distortion in a pleasurable way.” As previously pointed out, @badbeef is correct; bias and prejudice as to what “should be true” is getting in the way of real world experience and actual knowledge.

That is, your opinion lacks foundation. Get the relevant experience and then come back and talk to us.

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Why must you be so cruel… :slightly_smiling_face:

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Not sure it’s been mentioned yet, but a preamp like the BHK probably has much lower output impedance than the DS DAC output. This can have real sonic advantages driving the interconnect cables to the amplifier(s).

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I ran my system through the DS DAC without a preamp for a few years and thought it sounded very good. Last year I got a nice deal on a BHK Pre and thought it added a very nice touch to the music. A little pricey but nice. I took it out after about one month and put it right back in. I don’t want to miss out on what it adds to the music. Not so pricey after all!

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PSA make DACs specifically stated not to need pre-amps because of the digital volume control.

One of my theories is that the perceived sound quality of a good analogue pre-amp is a highly accurate volume control with an exceptionally low noise floor and zero distortion. The benefit may be over the impoved volume control over what was used before. The Townshend Allegri+ is probably a good example with a clearly stated design specification. I got that extra transparency when I added a Shunyata Hydra Alpha. It was quite obvious.

Once you start putting valves in the gain stage you often get a more pleasurable sound, which I did by adding an unnecessary valve phono pre-amp in my system. I may be replacing it with a quieter approach, there are trade-offs with valves.

As I said, I’ve heard systems with top end active pre-amps, and bought the passive Hattor because it has a pair of high quality 48-step attenuators and no power on the signal path.

I had @karthick’s set-up, put a passive pre-amp in front it and it was neither better nor worse.