FWIW, it has been my experience that many folks have their loudspeakers way too close to the front and side walls and this placement tends to emphasize and “muddy up” lower mid and low frequencies.
I also have never gotten my “best” subwoofer performance and integration with corner placement.
Congratulations on the new speakers.
Thanks for that scotte 1. I have them 36" in from front wall and side walls. Still has that pronounced mid bass.
Beautiful systems and lay out…
With all those bass traps, the only other room/set up related factor I can think of that might be relevant is subwoofer placement and integration.
For example, I wonder how the mid-bass might sound if you pulled the subwoofers out into the room further (more away from the corners/walls).
Relatedly, do you still have that pronounced mid-bass with the subs turned off?
Best wishes,
Scott
I agree with @scotte1 subwoofers.
One additional item to try is moving the speakers a little further apart and a little more out into the room, maybe each speaker 3" to 6" (and move the subs a bit too) and slightly increase toe-in.
On second thought, given your comment –
It may be a bit counter-intuitive, but I suggest @chuck929 try having the speakers firing straight ahead. I have found that revealing tweeters with great dispersion sound more coherent, for lack of a better word, when toed in very slightly or not at all.
Since mid-bass can be a bit directional and the side wall points of first reflection have apparently been addressed, I would not be surprised if the mid-bass might clear up a bit with little to no toe-in.
Making this and/or some subwoofer adjustments might just do the trick.
FWIW
That looks like a pretty steady setup…
Trying both is needed.
Supposedly too much mid-bass is either a too much subwoofing issue or not enough higher frequencies above the mid bass to blend properly.
I found i needed more toe-in to get magic with my FR20’s, and I do have magic. Tons of magic.
Hang in there. With a great setup like that and the room to play with placement of speakers and listening position it’s got to be solvable. I see the painter’s tape so you must have been really giving it your best attention in placement. My REL is behind my listening position and really has helped counter the muddy lows due to room dynamics. If you haven’t tried turning off the subs, do that and then proceed with setting up the speakers again using the Aspen setup guide & CD. That’s what made the difference with me. But of course disregard if you have already tried that.
On a more important point - I totally empathize with the frustration and slight anxiety of purchasing the FR10-s, having a great PS Audio stack that used to sound pretty darn good, and then experiencing disappointment in the SQ. I was dreading the thought of lugging those 75lbs speakers back downstairs and repackaging and paying the shipping for a second time just to return to my old speaker pair. I think I may not have to return the FR10’s after all.
Thank you all so much for the kind works and taking the time to reply. You have given me hope with your collective experiences. And yes, I do think this is solvable with the room I have to work with. Kudos to you tomhail, you describe my situation perfectly.
Made a few notes as I’m waiting for the afternoon FL thunderstorms to pass before I go back upstairs to dial those sleek looking FR10s in.
Have you tried locating your speakers along the long wall? Quite a lot of rearranging but could solve many problems. Also consider LEDE (live end dead end room treatment methods).
You have a really nice looking setup. I also have new FR10s and dual REL subs. I realize you may have already tried what I’m about to suggest,or, perhaps you’re in the same boat I’m in: various considerations dictate the placement of your subs. Having noted that, have you tried doing the subwoofer crawl? According to Paul, and I agree, subs typically are unable to do their best when placed close to the speakers. But in the past I’ve really been impressed by what the subwoofer crawl has revealed. I for got to mention that I really like my FR10’s, especially now that I’m approaching 100 hours. Good luck and happy listening!
@chuck929 I completely understand your anxiety. Patience and the great advice you’re getting here will help relieve this. But I’m also guessing this isn’t your first rodeo and you’ll have to sort through all this advice to dial in your game plan. Comparing your system (including space) to my experience, I’d be very surprised if you don’t land on a very satisfying setup.
I’m hardly an expert in these things, but my experience includes the regret of not taking care of first things first. After speakers, I believe how the speakers interact with the room needs to be well understood. I skipped this part and went straight to gear with very disappointing results. I didn’t know what to expect and didn’t understand that gross and subtle differences come with every change to and within the room.
With this in mind I completely agree w/ Sir Nick. Every speaker system will load the room differently. That said, I’d also like to pickup on Chris’s room mode calculator recommendation because this is fundamental to positioning any speaker, including I assume subs.
I didn’t find it here but thought @Baldy had added a recommendation to invest a relatively small amount of money in a UMIK 1 or similar and REW to measure the room. Plus 1000 but fair warning. If you’re not familiar with measurements/REW, your most significant investment may be time. This is a bottomless rabbit hole. I’ve barely scratched the surface, and it seems like 2 of every 3 scoops falls back in the hole, but it has been revelatory. The room is probably the most complex and least understood component within our systems and nobody’s is the same. YMMV holds more true in this often frustrating hobby/obsession than any other IME.
Think about it. In the niche world of high end audio consumed by the consumed, everyone and what and how they perceive is unique.
Best of luck!
Nailed it!!!
Trying a few of the suggestions above, what worked for me is moving the speakers further apart and NO toe in. Although this is somewhat counterintuitive to have them closer to the side walls, this worked for me. Not only was the mid bass tamed, but the entire sound stage opened up and imaging vastly improved. All of this was done with the RELs off. What a joy last night to spend some time listening to music instead of the room and speakers!
I gotta say, I have not had speakers that were so reactive to different placements. Not a bad thing, just unique to my previous experience. What I learned is to change placement in big increments to see if you’re getting closer to where you want to be. Manual suggests toe in to have tweeters intersect 3’ behind the listening position. I don’t know if closer to the wall (speakers further apart) and no toe in would have occurred to me without the generous help here. Thanks again.
Big relief! And exciting. I had to listen to a few tracks this morning to be sure what I heard last night was not time and space contingent. New day, good coffee, great sound upstairs. Now that I know they are keepers, I will make some minor tweaks and then get the RELs back in play.
Or maybe it was turning on the Himalayan salt lamp last night that was the real turning point.
So glad you found the sweet spot. Isn’t this forum amazing!?
After another two days I can say with all confidence the FR10s are here to stay. After getting placement sorted out, I believe the added run in time has really helped. My only nitpick is the decay is not what I’m used to with my Spendors. But I expect that will improve with more run in.
To those of you who are using REL(s) with your FR10s, do you mind sharing your crossover and level settings?
Thanks again for all of the help. Yes tomhail, this forum is amazing.
Hi,
With FR30’s and dual S812 REL’s connected via low-level, crossover is 3 and gain is 7 on the 1st and 8 on the 2nd subwoofer.
