Manistique is nice, Copper Harbor better yet, but it’s a ten hour drive from Detroit. My butt hurts just thinking about it. Sure is nice in the Keweenaw though (in summer).
Ahem, now back to the subject at hand …
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Possibly @Vmax , but when I beta tested the original Iconoclast ICs I discovered their physically stiff design was very problematic for my equipment location. I would be curious, though, if @galen-gareis could explain how the interaction of an IC like the UPOCC with the SPTPC would alter the very qualities of the SPTPC that many have commented on.
The stiffness of the gen2 interconnect can be mitigated some with XLR 90 degree clocking options. It will take out some length concerns relative to bend radii trade off.
The UPOCC gets sound stage perfect and also addressed occasional source related perceived harshness, I sometimes got with OFE interconnect. Never find any totally unlistenable source.
In my system shorter lengths seemed audible. Possibly burn in related.
Tony,
For my system I use the UPCC IC and SPTPC speaker in bi-wire. Many report a good time to break-in the speaker leads.
The Silver WILL NOT make the SPTPC “bright” as there is way too little harmonics off the fundamental to do that. What we hear as bright is below 10K.
How the leads interact is system to system and more YOU, and what YOU like to hear. Perfect is an individual achievement we don’t have to share.
The 4x4 and x4 will tighten-up the image definition, bring things into a tighter focus than the 1x4 and 4x4. But, to many this is too good a thing and the softer and larger presentation of the gen 1 are preferred. And, the 1x1 and 1x4 RCA and XLR BAV are a big hit for the $$$ and how good they are with ZERO bend issues as they are made to be flexible. We have many users who swear that the SPTPC + BAV is the way to go for the $$$ spent.
Get what best suits you.
Best,
Galen Gareis
Interesting. I find no harshness whatsoever with the OFE. With the SPTPC, OTOH, there is a bit of harshness in my system.
I never said “bright”, Galen. 
But there’s something about the SPTPC HF reproduction in my system that, as currently configured, just doesn’t sound right. Ultimately I’ve found it to be fatiguing.
This is part of the reason why ultimately I felt the gen 1 was not right for my system and listening tastes.
Cheez, do I have to ask for a x4 BAV XLR now? 
OFE Iconoclast speaker wire sounded like a blanket over my speaker. The Gen 2 OFE interconnect gave clarity with ETPC and SPTPC. It was only certain sources That gave harshness . The fewer grains in UPOCC are very audible with better HF smoothness yet live music sound. It sounds like music too just more alive.
But i am sure certain HF drivers need different solutions. The UPOCC has more synergies.
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So you’re saying that the UPOCC IC smoothed out harshness that you sometimes heard with the SPTPC speaker cable?
Yes exactly that result in my system. It was very evident to particular digital sources like early 80s digital tecordings versus analog masters. Kind of like the Windom over Snowmass difference of firmare on the DSD in the majority of users systems. If you have a bad Windom load not the situation but hopefully that comparison gives perspective.
Interesting. Thanks.
In my system, silver clad copper (ic), always sounds harsh. Solid silver sounds incredible.
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Tony,
Never said you suggested the SPTC were bright. I pointed out that the 40 micro-inch silver coating will not make them “bright”. And, it physically won’t. It can’t. The copper responsible for the diffusion depth of the fundamental responsible for “brightness” is the exact same for SPTPC and TPC. The SPTPC on specific systems opens up the “air” in good recordings like super tweeters, used right, do. Most of our sources won’t show a difference at all.
Next, look at spectral energy of our sources, few have information above even 13K. Many surces with spectral content well under 10K can sound bright or splashy.
Leads both run-in the same between TPC and SPTPC should sound very much the same in the trebel, with the exception being the VERY upper end air with SPTPC. Audio Bacon reports are accurate on the different leads copper characteristics. The Audio bacon comments are anything but saying they are bright, actually lending the sound to a more uniform natural presentation and sound stage.
I use speakers that go out to 40 KHz, and bad sources are indeed bad. No lead will fix that and not trash proper source material, it is the nature of our hobby to isolate what we most listen to. Better speakers are the same, they won’t fix bad sources, just show how bad they really are. I chase the better sources, not my worst. My choice, true.
I’m not sure your comment about the BAV, and what you’re getting at. We’ve had this more flexible product awhile and it is a more laid back sound than the 1x4 RCA or 4x4 XLR. And, BAV fits difficult installation with ablomb. The BAV will eclipse most all leads in their price range, too.
Sure, you have to ask about what choices you want to audition, we can’t send the entire store. That would be equal to no help at all. We try to best get the choices right for your taste the best we can. In the end, more choices can do more to confuse than the help.
You’re on the right track. Get some equal time on the leads and listen to each on several hours with proper sources you want to sound the best. No lead can span the bad to the good…the idea is the lead lets the source come through “as is”. That said, better edge definition and soundstage, to me, is a preference over a too soft image and lack of openess in my old world CD’s. And yes, even if that means there is a little bite in the top end…that’s really in the source. I take it for what it is…it isn’t the cable or the speaker.
Best,
Galen Gareis
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I am curious as to what your preferred sources are that best demonstrate the Iconoclast speaker and interconnect cable capability. My assumption is you are using Redbook CDs and possibly a PS Audio DSD DAC.
I have found your comments very helpful during this stretch of my journey with the Iconoclast cables.
It’s all a synergy thing, as you and I think almost all of us agree with. Steve (Mr. Bacon) uses / used both the BHK preamp and amp for his listening. Both hybrids with tube front ends and FET output stages. Both are excellent devices, but as hybrids both may have made for a better match with the SPTPC cable. I also have a hybrid amp - an AVA 600R. Similar - tube front end and FET output stage. Designs like this to my ears (I’ve heard a few), while not “sounding the same” tend to have similar sonic telltales. I would venture they are more forgiving in areas where, in other systems, that upper end quality of the SPTPC may be more of a factor.
As to my sources, apart from the music (a very wide variety of everything from Baroque to modern jazz to pop), the gear driving the music is typically considered natural and pure of tone - Pass XP-20, Pass X260.8, DMP, DS DAC, VPI Avenger, Benz LP-S (okay, the Benzes are known to be a bit warm). Various supporting cables depending on location, but none being known for edginess or other similar sonic attributes. If your reference to sources is more to the music, then my collections goes anywhere from the best recording available to… let’s say run-of-the-mill recordings, but music I still enjoy. I’ve used among the best of my selections for the listening of these various cables.
An error on my part. I thought the BAV was also available based on gen 2 technology, but when I looked at the website I saw I was mistaken. Given the BAV is based on the gen 1 design, would you say that sonically that sound more like the gen 1s over the gen 2s?.
Yes, that’s where personal preference comes in. While on the face of it I agree with what you’re saying, it’s all a tricky balance, isn’t it? Does transparency and openness to an extreme degree mean you’ll wind up enjoying your music more, or less? Or does that system have to be balanced in a way that provides maximum musical enjoyment with a minimum of coloration or “influence” of the equipment on the sound?
+1 to this request. I’d like to get some insight into this as well. Thanks, Galen!
Tony,
Your fine. It is hard to keep up with all the variables. I just want to point out how the accepted calulations enter into all this. It is OK to say what we like but let’s be very careful about placing a BLAME on something and believing it with no firm data. This is not how we LEARN about things. It is OK to say we don’t know. That will make you smarter, assigning a cause because we feel we need to won’t get you to the right answer as we tend to cement in the original guess as some sort of sacred placeholder that is “right”. I don’t do that. If I don’t know I simply say I don’t know. That leaves further thought and open minded investigations to all other alternatives.
What do I use…mostly near or just at “A” level stuff;
T+A Solitaire CWT 1000-40 Carbon’s
Martin Logan CLX
Martin Logan BF212 subs (stereo)
Sim Audio MOON W-8 amplifer
PASS LABS XP-30 pre amp
Pass Labs XP-25 Phono
VPI Classic 3.0 T.table wth JM memorial arm
Benz Ruby Z or SUMIKO Blackbird cartridges.
PS Audio DS DAC with Snow mass Firmware
PS Audio Bridge II
PS Audio Memory CD player
PS Audio P20 runs the entire show.
IC cable are UP OCC 4x4 XLR and 1x4 RCA
Power cables are BAV line 14 AWG (to source items)and 10 AWG (to the P20 and W-8 amp) EPDM dielectric. More on those later, these aren’t available yet but I use everything we sell.
The HW system is built to be true back to the source over being “tailored” to a final patina as a system. Especially the 1000-40 speakers, they play it as the source is…like it or not. They aren’t as much a part of the “music” per say. The CLX add some ambience and imaging size coloration that is nice but that can hide what components are doing. The 1000-40 are reference quality design. I don’t use the subs with the CWT 1000-40 so I hear more the cable and supporting HW. True, subs can go deeper flatter but you have two tonality issues overlapping and the PHASE differences to deal with.
So that’s the basic HW layer. For the software layer I use an Intel built i7 3770 CPU server with an Intel MB with a 6TB Seagate NAS quality HDD. This has W10 and MINIMSERVER and that’s about it on a SSD boot drive. All the music is ONLY on the HDD. I use bubbleup upnp control software on a requisitioned Motorola phone that is out of service for phone usage.
Here is a kicker, I use Ethernet over Power Line. Yep, I stream from the PC to the Bridge II over ROMEX! And, it works great. My digital is pretty simple…and low cost. An ASUS wireless router gets the phone to the PC. I use the 2.4 GHz band. I have no Cloud streaming services at this time.
Here is the issue with sources. I like RECORDS, older records, when the ART of how it sounded was the important thing…not just making money. If this was universally more true today with digital, we would have equally nice digital music. The SnowMass firmware has digital very enjoyable, so the SOURCE is the issue over the HW in my system.
I can take a Radio Shack SPL meter or use my cell phone SPL software, and records have twice the dynamic range as my digital most of the time. Take an old Cat Steven’s record and they trashed it going to digital. Same with Gorgon Lightfoot and on and on. The “conversion” is fast and cheap. Audiophiles aren’t their customer, really. Digital isn’t used to it’s superior potential most of the time as we are still mostly using old analog stuff compressed onto CD’s. Now those old master tapes aren’t “compressed” as a source. The loudness war did that. Listen to the KINGSTON TRIO on CD, that is really nice and dynamic, even 16-bit. Wonderful recordings. Listen to the Sons of The Pioneers, Cool Water. Record better than the CD but both are amazing musical quality.
I have no genre of music I use. But I do use VOICES most ALWAYS evaluating cables. Here is why…I DO NOT have the proper muscle memory for instruments as I don’t hear them correctly EVERY day. Many I’ve NEVER heard live. Admit it, we just don’t. Sure, they can sound good but that isn’t the same as right. I HATE alto sax, as it is an abrasive rude instrument most of the time. But that’s exactly how it needs to be heard, too. Many think it is “wrong” when it bites you! No, it is INTENDED to be able to BITE your ears at times. It SHOULD make you cringe, same as a good trumped blast or violin odd harmonic duet. Then, the music rolls into the melody that seems even sweeter right after your ears were assaulted prior. Do the assault right, and the melody is even more divine contrasted to the not so divine. Don’t tame it, reproduce it.
Voices tie what is happening together in the critical midrange. I hear voices every day, and know how the SHOULD sound in a room. I won’t pretend I hear a pipe organ all that often to say I have a reference! The bass and treble key up and down into the midrange. Get the mids right and the bass and treble is going to be more right straight away. OK, the extreme top end and bottom not so much, but four fifths of what a speaker can do is determined in the midrange.
When you listen to a new speaker to buy, you could use ONLY voices and pick the right speaker for accurate treble and bass. Sure, the bass is going to be volume determined in the very low end so “bigger” can be a give away there. Powered speakers are, of course, their own thing for bass.
For 16 or 24 bit and pick your frequency, it doesn’t matter to me. The SOURCE is what wins or loses. I have some truly nice 16 bit CD’s (Lorena McKennett) and some pretty harsh ones (Philip Philips). Technically, 24 bit would be my choice for a standard as it is quiet enough, dynamic enough and pushes the filter effects above 20 KHz. 32 bit is great for editing to keep noise in check and dropping some data during cutting (adding and subtracting)…but it is way overkill for a final source.
So I’m pretty much the same as you. I have no big stock of secret open reel tapes or hi-res digital. I listen to my stuff the same way you do…the MUSIC is what is picked more than the RECORDING most of the time. I use a reference not so good England Dan and John Ford Best of CD to hear INTO the recording with better equipment. This is easier at times than using my very best quality music. No, bad isn’t being transformed, it is just getting to the ultimate capability of the source. It is easier to hear bad stuff better than better stuff better.
My good stuff tells me how far I’ve gone to the top and my bad stuff tells me how far I’ve come from the bottom. Working off the bottom is easier. So that’s my secret if I have one. I use crappy stuff auditioning improvements. Probably not what you thought. You get to enjoy the cables abilities far more than I usually do.
Best,
Galen Gareis
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I loved reading your reply, Galen. In looking at our equipment lists there are many similarities. It suggests we think about sound in similar ways. I did chuckle, a little, when I saw the Ruby Z (a great cart, BTW) and then your comments about the HW being “back to the source” as opposed to “tailored”. I used to own the Ruby Z and now use the LP-S as my go-to cart on my Fatboy. I’ll occasionally run an A-95 or a SS cart on one of my other VPI arms, but the Benz is my go-to cart. Benz carts definitely have a “sound”. 
I love the sound, but it’s a sound nonetheless. I think as hard as we might try, it’s almost impossible to make a true uncolored signal chain in audio. Too many variables.
Our speakers are vastly different. I haven’t heard the Solotaires, but my Von Schweikerts sound good to me.Unless especially made for use with subs, like you I’m not a sub guy - and for much the same reasons. I’ve rarely been to a fellow audiophiles house where a set of speakers with added subs actually sounded better with the subs. When they turn them off (usually at my request), I’ve found the speakers on their own to sound better.
I also use voice as my main point of evaluation, but I do have the good fortune to go to may different musical venues throughout the year. A combination of classical, jazz, and small venue pop. Most of it either all acoustic or minimally miked. I’ve had alto saxes and trumpets scream at me while I’ve been just a few rows into the audience. To me even that is musical. 
IMO very hard to reproduce without the signal chain contributing something to it. In some ways voices are easier.
Tony,
Yes, the Benz RUBY Z is a warmer softer sound. The SUMIKO Blackbird is far more vivid and full of pratt. Different on purpose. A Lyra DELOS is probably the best middle ground.
The Von’s are, an always have been, well rated speakers for accuracy. Best, they do it for a really good price, too.
A lot of live music can way overload your ears. Our systems can’t really get near that level unless it is tailored to a really narrow task (horns and a big amp!).
Sure, the CWT can do 105 dB continuous but then I’d have to afford BIG good sounding amps. Nope, I think I’ll see 80-90 dB most of the time.
I try, with my own bucks, to have access to what our customers will use. To see both sides of the arguments, and LISTEN to them BOTH. I’m not a corporation. I’m a single guy trying to provide a nice product that really works, and is a true value.
My designs are measured, calculated and tested. They are also listened to and used in my system. My concern is how it works and less the marketing. Where things are less defined in application, I’ll give you the measured data, an my reasons why I made the choices I have. Some final evaluations have to be thus made in your system, and what type of value it represents.
Best,
Galen Gareis
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Nice to hear you are still rockin’ Snowmass.
. I’ve had reports of others reverting. It ain’t broke.
Not saying Windward is - just sayin’.
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Snowmass----muh bruthuh
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badbeef,
Snow Mass got digital over the hill for me to actually like. Prior to that stuff just didn’t have the immediacy of a record. It was just OK, but now digital has a “liked” sound, although still different. Compression wars seemed to be holding digital back…not the formats fault, but where the material is designed to be played back, and that ain’t us.
Now, recording engineers willing, we can hear some nice true digital source recording that are not so compressed and exceed LP’s. Even streamed off the Internet…and this is the mic to original SOURCE not the final packaged product. If it is digitally recorded badly, no amount of fancy file formats will help.
I keep waiting for the “conversion” to superior digital masters from master tapes originals but…
Best,
Galen Gareis
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