Galen, thank you so much for all your help on this forum
I’d love a steer on a couple of things I’m considering with some system changes.
Big fan of T+A gear (have A 3000 HV) and have OCC interconnects and SPTPC (v1) speaker cable in four separate runs to my Von Schweikert speakers.
I’m looking at upgrades and wondering if I’m giving too much thought to the speaker cable configuration. Some of the amps I’m looking at (e.g. CH Precision A1.5) have only one pair of outputs per side. And spades only, no less!
I lovelovelove the Iconoclast cables, and want to make sure I do the right thing — if this exists — with speaker cables. Would you expect a factory-combined bi-wire run from a single +/- into mid/tweeter and woofer cables to be a step down, all other things being equal? And for extra fun…does it make sense to have that biwire run be a mix of the v1 and v2 cables?
Yup. It was situated in such a way that it had adequate space, but rather than sliding down along the wall, it jammed up against the Target stand’s crossbrace above, and just folded up. Didn’t even feel it happen, as the SPP is pretty massive.
I straightened and massaged slightly, but I’ll go back and give it another rub. Poor baby! Been a rough day! Daddy’s sorry about breaking your neck!
I can forward two papers that will answer your questions with the supporting data and calculations.
I the math and science shows what to use where, and how double parallel single or bi-wire works with true examples measured and compared to the theory. This will allow you to decide if it is right for you.
Generally, in a true bi-wire, use the series I for the bass and the series II for MID/trible. The two designs cross over neatly in the bass region and it is cheaper to use the series I. Sure, the series II can be used in the bass but to no real math defined benefit.
With single post speakers, use two series II in parallel for the best electrical. You can use a bananna on one end and spads on the opposite end. Flip the ends and attach spade to banana as shown. That puts the two in parallel with one set of posts (bottom example). The top example right below uses a daisy chain of bananas into a spade or not as needed.
For JUST spade with no five-way banana inserts, it get harder. We would need to aggregate TWO larger AWG wires into one spade. This can only be done with the Cardas billet Rhodium copper spades and WBT silver solder. Ultrasonic weld won’t get it done on that large a mass of metal. The amp posts will need to take TWO spades. See the last photo of an early prototype bi-wire. The difference it that the opposite end is ALSO co-joined.
Some set-ups just won’t let you get it done. But you’re not too far behind. The double bi-wire is an expensive “series III” cable system for sure.
What is shown are the CARDAS CABD banana plugs. They use a different kind of retention system compared to barrel springs or locking type. And, they are silver solder only, I won’t use anything but a WELD of some sort. No screws. They can’t be ultrsonic welded.
The Rhodium LONG tips are SPLIT into two. A inserted spring is moved forward or back to set the insertion and retenntion force (look close in the picture). This adjusts for the differences outside of the WBT banana hole I.D. size standard. Contact length is longer than most banana so a low DCR interface,
Most people seem to have issue adjusting the small spring with a small thin blade screw driver. They, of course, come with the spring in the same place which isn’t proper across the board. Most never know how to adjust them forward (more) or back (less) adjusting the tension. This does cause some grief. If your banana hole I.D. is way off, no dice. They adjust but not as far as a barrel plug or locking type. I use them exclusively just fine on all my stuff over the years. They do require a more persnikity set-up. Once set, forget about them. Locking banana are far more user friendly, yes, but far less adaptable to bi-amp and bi-wire.
The nice thing about them is that you can daisy chain and add a spade across them too like I showed.
You can use the rear holes for another banana.
You can use the GOLD nut to hold another SPADE (7 mm is best).
The only other hole is for the SOLDER to be applied.
It isn’t a through hole and is under the gold nut.
Used this way they are great for dual bi-wire.
I must be misunderstanding your application, sorry.
The CARDAS banana + spade is the closest I’ve seen that does that nicely. But this won’t help if you have cable with banana on both ends already, true.
But, I see no reason a dual banana adapter could not be made nicely, though. It’s all in how many need to be sold to make it profitable to do so.
Hey, that’s the ticket! I did see a different one like this on Amazon, but one of the reviews pointed out how it made his system sound worse. Hopefully not the case with this one.
Hypothetically, but really: do you think it would make a significant audible improvement if all source components and amplifiers (and all cables for that matter) in a system were made with 100% meticulous ultrasonic/laser welded connections all the way through, 0% solder? I know, I know, it would be very costly and difficult. But possible.
A minimal signal path SET amplifier would be easiest to implement this way, I think. A Darling amp for example. The layout would just have to be optimized for the most convenient reach with these welding techniques.
Even for DIY this could be possible, I asked a company specializing in laser welds for tech, if they could weld some RCA terminations for me - they can. Will see what it comes to cost per weld… Though this might be “quasi-DIY”
By WELD I mean avoid those screw-on terminal adapters. Solder, ultra-sonic weld but SOMETHING that is permanent. That puts you weld into the symantics stage for what is best. I’ll let everyone argue in that small space. I use both solder and ultra-sonic weld.
Those screw-on adapters are a catch-22 too. The harder the metal the harder it is to keep them tight. You need to use special lock washers with hardened bolts or they will easily loosen. The softer the metal the easier it is to damage them. The threads distort and self lock (cheap soft metal does this). The material’s young’s modulus and elastic modulus will tell you all about this and how it happens.
I used GERMAN made MAICO motocross bikes (1974, 78, 80, 81 and 83) with super hard bolts of superior quality. But use the wrong, or no, locking washers and the great quality bolts are all over the race track! My YAMAHA IT175 had cheap and soft metal bolts and they distort and lock in place. Try to remove a bolt a year or two later without an impact drive and the bolt is a destroyed mess that looks like it was a piece of plastic.
Galen, please, couldn’t you share with us your knowledge about how much of a degradation a metal-solder-metal interface will make, compared to a metal-metal weld?
It’s got to be small, for sure. But the cumulative aspect of these joints along a signal path is the point of course.
Let’s say we had two amplifiers, (phono, pre, or power), otherwise identical but the other is soldered, the other ultrasonic/laser welded. There are 300 joints in each.
Would the difference most likely not be measurable? I bet it would be audible. (Since people with revealing enough systems report differences in types of solder even)
Big signal and welds or small signal and weld? We tend to forget we already have thousands of wave solder welds all over the PC boards. Yep, solder is everywhere to the effect you are looking for in every PC board. Sure, less joints are better to do the same job more because of consistency and standard deviation (machines make this variation tiny) than signal degradation. Many devices bypass tone controls or unused circuit blocks.
If solder was so bad, or much worse than ultra sonic welds with “fragile” small amplitude signals in the signal path we’d probably hear about it!
Waver solder is machine made and consistent. An ultra sonic weld is machine made and can be more consistent over hand solder.
It is the consistency of quality that we are after, not that one is a ton better than the other. Either choice is better than threaded intefaces that get loose that have a signal applied through it.
Hey @iconoclastjeff - just wanted to thank you for building the 1310A QctoQuads for me, and for the great communication / delivery time. As always, it is a pleasure to work with the BJC team.
One of my fellow head-fi.org colleagues on Jason Stoddard’s Schiit Audio board asked me how the Belden QctoQuads compared to their predecessors, a pair of BJC 4s11 Canare Quad bi-wires. Here’s what I wrote:
…
I have been using Canare 4s11 for the last 15+ years - I bought 250’ quite a while ago. Using that cable and Cardas silver solder, I have built multiple sets of mono- and bi-wire speaker cables. Due to a bout of laziness, I bought a pair of BJC 4s11 bi-wires in August of 2021. That’s when I decided that it’s a lot easier to ping Jeff at BJC and have beautiful things appear on my front porch in three days… [and BTW I can’t give those guys enough kudos for customer service].
Comparing my experience with Belden 1310A to the 4s11 is hard, as I’ve never run two parallel lengths of Canare 4s11 per side, as the 1310A is used in the OctoQuads.
I can say these things regarding my most recent cable-swap experiences, which are based on:
a set of BJC Canare 4s11 locking banana bi-wires (one cable, 4-conductors total per side) - versus -
a set of BJC Belden 1310A locking banana mono-wired OctoQuads (two cables, 8-conductors total per side; 4-per-polarity, with 4-conductor spaded 12" jumpers between the HF & LF terminals of the 804 D3s)…
Versus the Canare 4s11 bi-wires:
The Belden OctoQuads sounded quite bright initially, but they mellowed in a couple of hours…
…or, maybe my perception did?
Dunno, but the low end has ‘matured’ and ‘deepened’ dramatically IMHO now that we’re 15+ hours in
Soundstage “depth” has improved, markedly, with the QctoQuads. The system’s overall ‘drive’ seems to be more effortless
…not that the Tyrs ever worked hard. But they seems to be “freer” to drive the speakers than ever before
Width, not so much change, but there is definitely more apparent “air” around all of the voices/instruments in the presentation
this “air” gets more pronounced with good recordings… OMG the stuff that Sara K does is unreal. Her recording engineer is a god.
I am hearing sounds and undertones (e.g. that ‘raspy’ thing that happens around 3m53s into “When You Really Love Someone” by Alicia Keys on “Diary”) that I have never, ever heard before on loudspeakers - only with headphones / IEMs
…the insane part? I’m wondering how much improvement I could possibly see with a set of Iconoclasts…
But I spent a year with the 4s11 bi-wires and loved them
So I will keep my money and see what Belden / Galen / BJC do next
I am basically awed to have a system that is so resolving that my 64-year-old ears can hear the differences in a cable change. Just … unreal!!
p.s. aww schiit Alicia’s “Karma” is melting my heart right now at -43.5db on the Benchmark LA4’s screen. Even at this past-midnight volume level… it’s SO well recorded… crazy. Those violins!!!
p.p.s. my sane friends tell me that I need to get a life.
If I could, I would avoid PC boards and even have the DAC entirely point-to-point. But that’s to come with wealth, so not just yet - I’ll still stick to idealism about it.
There may not be reports of people “hearing” it, since ultrasonic welding (or laser) has thus far reached only to cables where we’re dealing with a few joints. If we had whole source components or amps with throughout ultrasonic welding, the additive nature would start showing up.
And we do hear reports about perceived SQ differences between types of solder, so… It could only get better with welding.
— with speaker cables. Would you expect a factory-combined bi-wire run from a single +/- into mid/tweeter and woofer cables to be a step down, all other things being equal? And for extra fun…does it make sense to have that biwire run be a mix of the v1 and v2 cables?
It was situated in such a way that it had adequate space, but rather than sliding down along the wall, it jammed up against the Target stand’s crossbrace above, and just folded up. Didn’t even feel it happen, as the SPP is pretty massive.
[and BTW I can’t give those guys enough kudos for customer service].