Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

[rower30]

My remaining four REL 31’s are here in the states! The six pack is getting real close. Need to pay and wait for four big boxes. Lots of new cables to order, too. Like eight BAV power cords and four REL speakON jumpers.

While I wait for funds to sit the 24 hours (hit T-day anyway) I looked at my room. It is 14 feet wide and 39 feet deep. But, when I didn’t have a stereo as elaborate as I do now, the entire room was built too far forward. I had to disassemble a huge bookshelf and move everything four feet back away from the front of the room. To the untrained eye, it looks the same. But, I have four more feet in front of the speakers.

The things we do for our hobby. The CWT’s like physical SEPARATION between them, the CLX not as much. Neither is too sensitive to side walls being line sources. But the darn books shelf was just too close. So four feet farther into the back of the room it had to go. I took photos of the three bookshelf spaces so all the stuff fits back in there! Amazing how stuff EXPANDS after it is removed from shelves. I still had six mystery books on the floor.

Best T-day ever, Galen

[rower30]

Some fun stuff on Paul’s post.

Different sides of truth

Hearing with our brains

The shape of sound

[rower30]

A lot of power cords with the six pack…six more. But let’s talk power cords a second. We get a LOT of questions on power cords. Most of it is pure myth. And yes, we tested dozens of cords for actual properties before we selected the 600V Industrial cordage that we use to make BAV cord sets. For the nitty gritty, go here; https://iconoclastcable.com/techpapers/bavpoweranalysis.pdf

The biggest issue people have is shielded power cords are “better”. Well, no. How can all those unshielded power cords on the P20 be whisper quiet?

Basics, a shield has to overcome a problem that is worse than the shield superimposes into the mix. Yep, a shield has a negative performance contribution too. A shield adds reactance in capacitance and the closer it is to the inner wires, the worse it becomes. It also will rat out bad ground differentials in your wiring and give you a nice ground loop.

The purpose of a shield is to limit mostly EGRESS, stuff radiating OUT of the cord, not INGRESS, which is what we audiophiles always tend to think about. Don’t mess with my turf! Well, we can’t mess with other people’s turf, either!

The FCC has emissions limits devices needs to pass in order to be sold and if we use an open IEC socket that accepts any cord, UL will use the worst case cord during the test, and unshielded cord with the AWG based on the equipment specification current draw.

Why test this way? Because ANY cord can be used in the wild and the worst case prevents excessive emissions. The graph below is a FCC chart for emissions. The two lines are class A and B levels. The home class A limit is STRICTER than the INDUSTRIAL class B limit line. Yep, we consumers are big complainers when we use our stuff, and with far less knowledge than the pro’s that consider EMI/RFI far better than the average person at home.

Here is a UL test file showing the emissions limits for a device to be sold. The upper is CLASS B and the lower is CLASS A for home usage devices.

Why even have shielded power cords? Some devices with digital power supplies and VFD, variable Frequency Drive, devices are massive emitters of RFI, and require a shielded power cord for EGRESS. Here the negatives of the shields reactance is far, far less a problem than what is also mitigates. Everything is a balance and trade-off.

The next issue is what is called SPG, single point ground. NO, NO and NO on lifting the shield at EITHER END! A shield is not an antenna, and required both ends to be grounded to attenuate the RF on the shield. One end left open creates a resonance system that radiated RFI based on the shield resonance frequency determined by the length of the cable. You added yet another problem, not a solution. For those that want more tech on this, Email me for the entire paper to credit Larry West’s work.

All, of you that are using SPG are simply adding a problem that is just less of a problem than the “hum” or ground loop you removed. The proper solution is to figure out why your ground is lifted at some point in your chain and fix it. Saying I can’t find it, so a SPG “works” is STILL wrong! You are creating a radiating, and receiving, antenna that is doing the exact opposite of what a shield is supposed to do. The solution? Use an UNSHIELDED cord and fix the ground differential. The shield should be bonded to the chassis (green wire), or earth ground, not the neutral side. AND AT BOTH ENDS.

Industrial installations require an IEEE bonding specification (IEEE 3003.2-2014) be met for all ground points. This removes the grounding current to an acceptable level. ALL grounds have a “wire” between them with some DCR and voltage drop/current, yes. But proper bonding DCR differentials keeps issues below being problematic.

The next question is does a UTP cable even mitigate RFI? Yes, and no. Depends on the dielectric’s ability to move RF along the wires. We chose an EPDM insulation and it is AWFUL as a RF dielectric. It actually absorbs high frequency energy. Most UL approved equipment already has robust RF filters built-in to the power supply and pass the emissions and ingress testing as well. We don’t really need the suppression on the cord, but hey, we all want better so we chose better. Here is the RS against frequency and the impedance, or resistance, to RF energy down the cable. The EPDM 19105 is essentially equal to or worse at passing true RF. This attribute is probably not a benefit with good equipment more than a feel good thing. The durability of 600V (thicker insulation than 300V versions) EPDM cords is a big asset, though. Flexible, tough and relatively cheap in our world.

A quick primer on power cord testing for our usage shows we need high quality UTP power cords of suitable construction to be easy to use, durable and safe. I go with the data and so should you when it is available.

Best, Galen Gareis

[RonP]

I hear from some experts who tell me that I shouldn’t trust my ears. They show me graphs and charts with circles and arrows and paragraphs explaining what each one says why I shouldn’t hear what I hear. But power cables have made a huge difference in my system, to my ears.

[rower30]

And using UTP power cords is better over SPG type that inject noise INTO your system. A suggestion that “hearing” SPG inducing MORE NOISE is better isn’t sensible over zero injected noise with a UTP core OR using a shielded cord with both ends grounded. The data tells you, I don’t.

Best, Galen

[rower30]

The remaining four REL 31 six pack subs arrived. Moved them to the basement and unpacked them. It was a fair fight, I weigh 142# and the 31’s weigh156# in a boxes. There they will sit until help stacking them arrives and the six cords, a lot of BAV 14 AWG power cords and four speakON to speakON jumpers also arrive. I had just enough room for the four more boxes. Storing all the boxes is a BIG part of this hobby. I have room UP in the listening room but storage? YIKES.

We shall see what all the fuss is about with the six pack. I need a good home for the BF212’s in mint shape. That’s the last thing to do. Make sure someone enjoys them.

Best, Galen

[rower30]

Any of you do an equipment tweak that starts an avalance of stuff?

The CWT’s are humming real well, but going full tilt on subs wasn’t just plopping them down like I thought.

- Moved them 9’ apart.

- Toed-in to point at you as these need that to sound most balanced.

- +4 dB treble balance. The CLX are brighter up high or the CWTs are softer up top. My room isn’t bright doing the clap test.

- +1 dB to the left speaker, right is by the wall and louder.

- Rearranged the room farther back, no shelf reflecting the right speaker anymore.

- Then added the 31’s that really blend with the CWT’s. OK, that worked sound wise.

- I moved the right CWT even more toward the wall than below as they ignores the side walls so even bigger sound stage. The CWTs are directional in a good way.

- That allowed the crooked TV to be centered in the nook.

• 

- Added a 20A dedicated outlet for the P20 and uncorked it’s C19 IEC connection in back for the full monty power delivery.

- Now I add the full six pack. All four sitting on the floor plugged in conditioning the power supply capacitors.

- Ordered a bunch of BAV power cords and speakON to speakON jumpers.

-Signed up for 3 years of Qobuz on the special offer to have music and make it all worth it.

-And when my son arrives, stack them up! My side may fail, he can dead lift 500 pounds!

Cripes, I’m I done yet? Nope, got to tune it all in and also with the CLX.

Best, Galen

[allan.thunes]

@rower30

I’m I done yet?

Will you ever really be done?

[paul172]

A thing of beauty!

[rower30]

Many, many of you have nicer curb appeal systems. Mine is a work based enterprise. Those interesting amps will be behind the stack of subs so the’ll go bye-bye visually.

I did go back and re-listen to the bi-amp full class A mode. Nope, it isn’t as solid and precisely etched edge detail I like. Class A always seems softer and smoother. Not my thing.

I’m kind of stubborn. A friend took YEARS to get me to try Qobuz and I LOVE it, and signd up for three years. I go from no to yes, yes!

Galen

[rower30]

I’ll play the, “I need to do this to set-up the six pack” as long as I can! After that the excusses falls flat. I need a snappy sounding LYRA DELOS cartridge for the six pack…not really. The high-output SUMIKO Blackbird is darn snapy and solid imaging.

Best, Galen

[AR]

Curious to know what procedure you’ll be following for setting up the six pack? Please do share.
I’ve thought about adding another 4 Carbon Specials to my rig, but found REL’s setup procedure for one and two subs to be a bit ‘flawed’, so I just can’t bring myself to go through it with another 4 subs!

[rower30]

Yes, set-up is the whole thing for sure!!

First set the first sub anchor near the ball park, listen ONLY for LOUDER switching the phase switch.

After that the “general” procedure is to set each layer one sub one at a time by itself until each layer is integrated seamlessly into the mains as a stereo set by itself. NOW you listen for clarity, not volume.

This adjusts mainly the cross-over frequency. Don’t worry about the level yet, just clarity of the BASS. Repeat all this for each sub. After the layers all sound like they are best stand-alone, then you turn them all on and adjust the level. Leave the cross-over and PHASE alone. That was set in part one.

Each sub (unplug all but the one) will have a slightly different cross-over point to get the reference bass as crisp sounding as possible (not the same as deep). The highest subs will likely be a higher cross-over point.

After all the subs are tweaked for the crispest and most open sounding cross-over point (top sub is naturally going to be able to sound most open as it has less low frequency reinforcement), you turn them all on. NOW we worry about volume.

USUALLY the mid bass (center sub) is going to be too high and cloud the midrange. Pull that one down first, then adjust the others for proper SPL balance. But, the clarity is usually the middle sub. Supposedly.

Do listen to the REL U-Tube on this. I tried to condense it down and yes, I bought the sneaker video to transcribe the audio to my server.

Odds are a “finish” point is too varied to have any sort of data bass(ha!) on set-ups for a speaker.

Today I will set the lower “anchor” subs position for best bass. I won’t have help to stack them after my son leaves, so I will stack them, but remember, we do one sub at a time left to right and up the stack (unplug the speakON jumpers as needed.

My expertise in this is ZERO, so I’m all ears literally on this.

Best, Galen

[tony22]

Galen, it would be interesting to see a sweep of your setup after everything is all dialed in!

[AR]

You deserve some kind of medal for going through that.
I’ll be honest, I like my Carbon Specials but even adjusting a pair is difficult as there’s no ‘feel’ with the pots for either volume or XO, so with the sub rears close to the wall, it’s impossible to really tell where each is at, other than by listening. (all also touch the driver sometimes to get some tactile feedback).
Why REL don’t have an app control for these is beyond me.
I’ve setup DBA’s in the past, using Duke LaJune’s ‘Swarm’ arrangement, so the concept of stacking one sub atop the other and having them adjacent the main speakers, is odd to me. The point of adding subs in my mind is to find nulls in the room that are obvious at the listening seat, then to use subs to smooth out the overall bass response at the chair.
Anyway, you’re a braver man than me. Good luck, and keep us posted!

[rower30]

Since I can’t stack them alone, I need to set the anchor subs, then stack them. After that turn on each sub as needed. I got the Qobuz SNEAKER movie sound track, but the track #3 REL suggested I found lacking for all but phase (quick see which plays LOUDER). That wasn’t too hard. I will be ZERO across all the subs for phase.

For the cross-over setting I found a BETTER track, “PLANNING THE SNEAK” has a steady beat at the start of the track that goes awhile. You can turn up the X-over until it is BLURRY, and back it down until it is nice and clear. I end up at 25-26 Hz doing one sub at at time. Same as I did by ear over time.

The gain adjustment is weird. This track, and all of them, are so soft on the bass I wind up at 18, and I never am that high playing anything else. More like 10 usually to maybe 15 at the highest.

It is crystal clear and tight with the strong kettle drum using the “PLAYTRONICS BREAK-IN” track. If I unplug the two subs just to check out what I paid for, the CWT’s just don’t get it done. The entire lower registers of music is gone. Trust me on this, unless you have CRAZY sized passive speakers, and even then I have question, you won’t hear the lower registers properly. It is night and day difference, astounding even.

Right now I’m OK with the subs anchor placement based on how sharp and clear the playtronics break-in track plays out. I’ll stack them and just unplug the subs not being tuned. I’ll use the same tracks and turn up the cross-over until it is blurry and back it down till it is clear. That’s the proper X-over frequency. Phase is the same on all of them.

After that X-over adjustment turn them all on and adjust ONLY the levels unti it is balanced. The word on the street is the middle sub is the “boom” control in the stack. It may be set to a lower level than the rest. Still, setting the six pack levels seems to be the hardest part.

Once the anchor subs placement is set, and tuned to optimized settings, it isn’t going to be too bad with the sources I’ve found to set the X-over on each sub. The hardest part is AFTER that, when you turn them all on and get a proper SPL blend.

The 31’s have numerical readout, part of the reason I went this way, so reference is easier and you use a nice remote to set everything. We shall see.

Best, Galen

[rower30]

Tony,

Yes, be interesting but mics aren’t too accurate down low and, we all like a thumb on the bass as we lose hearing sensitivity as volumes are lowered. I do add +2.5 to +4 dB on the treble to get a better balance to my ear. I can give it a shot with my SPL meter and test tones.

Best, Galen

[tony22]

@AR

he point of adding subs in my mind is to find nulls in the room that are obvious at the listening seat, then to use subs to smooth out the overall bass response at the chair.

This is the way. Using REW helps.

[rower30]

Removing nulls and voids is easier to do simply by sliding your chair to a flatter spot, and it isn’t too far back generally. You can’t fight the room too much, the idea is to “smooth” yes, but you won’t eliminate the room without excessive correction but DSP or parameteric EQ isn’t “correcting” with too much processing. Most rooms have ONE fundamental bass peak and a second harmonic above that. Find your flat spot by walking to and fro with an SPL meter to find the no major peak or dip spot, then flatten that main peak, and then the lesser harmonic off that main peak. STOP. For example, my room has a 30 Hz PEAK and a 60 Hz secondary, there is also a harmonic BELOW the 30 Hz but is it not audible at 15 Hz. I pad those two down if needed and stop right there. I don’t try to fill room holes.

DSP is dangerous because people will plop the subs anywhere and make the DSP force the linearity. This can place MASSIVE demands on the internal amps to fill large holes that are better “filled” by working within the room to sit where those holes aren’t there. This frees up a lot of watts and lowers distortion a bunch too.

Subs add a HUGE amount of low bass definition and grip. In no way can my CWT’s do what the subs do. Subs are far, far more than just smoothing devices, even the stereo pair. Subs are like Star Trek and go where no speaker I own has gone before.

Best, Galen

[rower30]

I talked to REL last night to get a couple felt sliders that were wrinkles a bit. No major issue, but when I talked to them they asked when I want them to set up the six pack! WHAT? Sure, he said, we can send the area representatives and set your two speakers up for you.

What is service? It is stuff like this that blows a customers mind it is being done for you! At ICONOCLAST we don’t see anyone as “special”, you ALL are special and we’ll do what ever we need to for even the most financially uninvolved customer that we have. They get the same treatment, and it isn’t bought. It comes with just being a customer at any level.

REL is also such a company, and yes, I was blown away they will service me as stuff like this is usually done for reviewers and “special” customers that have to meet a financial or other measure to be worthy.

We shall see what kind of grade I get setting up the CWT’s! I’ll let them set-up the CLX from the get go. I can give it a try on the CWT’s before they get here. This is turning out to be a surprise!

Best, Galen