wglenn said . . . Never before had they seen so much real information on design . . .As I predicted: Belden would provide legitimate design information and specs - as they do with their pro cables.
+1. It makes me happy to see hard engineering well received in the audiophile community.
After recent inquiries into various cable possibilities, also very grateful that technical information may come to the fore in the marketing of high-end cable.
Spent a lot of time going around in circles on cables, approaching these high-end luxury products that do a job (make nice noise) - that Revel Ultima Salon/Salon2 speaker designer says is reasonably consistently perceived by people in high-quality, double blind tests - as though there would be some objective, comparable basis of assessment (not only logical - on basis of specs; but at least reason-able and object-ive)
Taking @wglenn 's point, that the designer of the cable considers these technical points as ‘necessary, but not sufficient’ (like a mathematical / logical condition) for a good cable; then, at least it would make the job of qualifying possible solutions manageable.
Would still be room for magic / special sauce / secret herbs & spices.
Point in evidence, soon to be confirmed, BHK250/300 …
So I got my speaker cables back, finally
, from my friend. Had t go get 'em. Anyway, I put them back in the system and today when I fired up the system my wife looks at me and says, “You got the wires back, didn’t you. I knew the instant that I heard it.” Never said a word to her and the cables are out of sight. Ears only.
She’s an audiophile, hehe… ehh-xcellent… feel the dark side of The Force!
@wglenn ever tried Kubala Sosna ? I’m trialling Expression at the moment & they’re doing a very nice job, where Rocket 88 / 8TC / Gibraltar / Analysus Plus fell short.
still hoping to hear analysis Plus Crystal 8 Oval
would make do with an old Gibraltar if it was known by you that Belden Iconoclast killed the K-S Expressions (Emotion & Elation are higher in K-S line but were not available). The 3m expressions are (equivalent import adjusted / duty / GST / forex) us$1000. With matching xlr + digital at proportionate rates.
Sorry, I can’t comment on the cable comparisons above since I don’t have experience with K-S cabling. I would take the Beldens over the A+. The Beldens are starting to make the rounds with some more experienced ears than mine and the initial impressions are quite good.
Thanks - that’s useful - if the A+ Crystal Oval 8 > K-S Expressions, looks like I’d be best off with the Belden’s.
wglenn said Sorry, I can't comment on the cable comparisons above since I don't have experience with K-S cabling. I would take the Beldens over the A+. The Beldens are starting to make the rounds with some more experienced ears than mine and the initial impressions are quite good.Do you know if they will be showing the cables in Newport at the end the month? If so what room will the ybe in?
thanks
magicknow
Sorry for the late reply. I don’t think that they will be at Newport. Hanson AV is currently the exclusive retailer for the line and I don’t think that they are going. Still waiting for them to start taking orders…
Been reading this, another of the useful Pass Labs technical webpages, this one on speaker cable, including Inductance and Capacitance (allows one to consider the Belden information).
https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil
Interesting graph.
Understand the entire premise of the Analysis Plus’ cut out of the core relates to Skin Effect (I may be mis-remembering).
EDIT: I did mis-remember. Precisely 180 degrees wrong. In fact, to be fair, this Analysis Plus video talks about Skin Effect being of little relevance. AP+ cites i) Proximity Effect and ii) Current Bunching as most pertinent Frequency Effects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ogbEDlq9c
Skin effect doesn’t appear to have a measurable effect until around 100 Hz.
EDIT : Now irrelevant, since I was wrong about the skin effect.
Original text : I think this might be what Elk already knew when he mentioned that he wasn’t sure that the AP+ ‘core-less’ technolgy may not apply within the audio band. @pmc7027 Elk ?
Yep.
Super keen on trying Belden Iconoclast.
AP+ Crystals vs K-S Expressions
Set up one output of DSD to AP+ Crystals (IC’s + Speaker, high and low frequency) and other to Kubala Sosna Expressions (same). Play mono through either side via balance control.
Where possible, selecting music available in multi-format.
These fully burned in (300+ hours) AP+ Crystals do a noticeably better job on female voice, strings (particular violin) & (most) piano. Also, Bjork’s Vulcinara (with all those sounds it uses). The Expressions do a very nice job, but after some very close listening, the Crystals are better & clearer for these tones / instruments.
The difference in tone on the rock orientated tracks is huge (Queens of the Stone Age; will get back to PJ Harvey tomorrow). If the Crystals are telling the truth, then I think I’m having a Jack Nicholson moment, where I cannot handle the truth…
The 2.5m/3m (forget which they are) Expressions would cost au$1500 to keep (30% rrp since ex-demo / run-out by ex-distributor), about the same as used pricing from what I can gather. Entry point for 4 foot (1.2m) Crystals is probably around the same price.
If the Iconoclasts were as clear and as fast as the Crystals, but with the tonal balance of the Expressions - that would be a serious win for me.
The Kubala’s are “famous” ( Positive Feedback & Steve Hoffman do love them) for “neutrality”, and up and down the product line make it to recommended stereophile components. Whereas the Crystals are loved by TAS.
If I could have picked up the Emotions or the Elations on the same terms, I think I’d already be done. The Expressions were first high end product by K-S and the Emotions were developed next, and finally the Elations noted as being as detailed as Nordost Odin et al (but half the cost per metre). Elation / Emotion / Expression reviews hereunder for anyone curious. Elation review contains a ranking (imagine that - actual direct comparisons !) for various speaker cables at various price points, if anyone is curious (would be interesting to see where people who have heard the Iconoclast & other cables of the list would position the Iconoclasts, within that list).
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue44/kubala_sosna_elation.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/kubalasosna.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue42/kubala_sosna_expressions.htm
Sounds like the Beldens are better than the Expressions and also the (supposedly Valhalla level) Emotions.
Are the Belden beating the Odins and others ? Maybe the OCC variants will. Don’t see how I could justify the expense.
I could happily live with the Expressions, and probably will.
wglenn said The folks a Hanson AV also sell AP so they could give some insight.
I have spent some time swapping cables there but was concentrating on Nordost Odin. I found the frequency balance of the Iconoclasts to be close to the Odins but would give the Odins better highs and mids. I preferred the bass of the Iconoclasts, however. The Odins have an outrageous ability to provide imaging that puts you more "there". Almost spooky.If it is fair to compare the K-S Elation to the Odin, and since I've read the Elation about 30-35% (how does *one* come up with such relativities?) more detailed than the Emotions, and the Expressions I'm using are further down the pipeline, then it sounds like the Iconoclasts just rock.
@wglenn Was the Iconoclast ‘model’ you compared to the Odins the TPC cable variant ? Also, out of interest, have Hanson AV given you any insight into the Crystals vs Iconoclast ?
Green Machine said . . .I've read the Elation about 30-35% (how does people come up with such relativities?)Pure WAG
The OC Iconoclasts are what I was comparing to the Odins. Andres Sauceda is managing the new Belden line for Hanson AV. I’m sure he could tell you a good bit more than I.
Several friends and acquaintances of mine have bought or are buying Iconoclast cabling but the product roll-out seems to be not in full gear yet. Hanson AV hasn’t got them on their website yet, but they are available. Currently, you would need to call Hanson to get info on sales or demo sets. Sorry that I don’t have more specific info for you. People here in southwestern Ohio are buying them and I hope that they get their website up-to-date soon.
I got an “interesting” reception on the Devialet Chat forum when I chimed in with a Devialet owner who had just bought a set of speaker cables.
Interesting series of responses Will. I didn’t look around the Devialet site other than that thread, but they sure seemed closed minded, at least to the Belden’s. When you first posted the prices I was surprised at how high they were, but given this is Belden I would presume they would price similarly to their other products (i.e., accounting for price of material, labor to produce, and manufacturing machinery). Now that some time has passed have you gotten any feeling for how these are priced relative to actual manufacturing costs? I know this might be asking a lot, but to me and a lot of other folks the costs of wire/cable sometimes seem grossly out of whack with what it costs to make them. Some insider information on how this works might help.
I can state clearly that the price of the Belden ICONOCLAST cables is inline with the materials and manufacturing costs of the cables. They are well made and the increase in price for higher quality copper is expected. The engineering design behind them was geared to get the best sound quality they could and not to make concessions to cost. They also require custom equipment to build.
Would @Ted Smith also be able to make comments about the quality of sound that goes with that quality of construction ?
I’m going to interject here because there is some behind the scenes testing going on and Ted has been one of the evaluators. We’re trying to keep the others who have not heard the cabling yet from being influenced by the other’s comments, so I’m giving Ted an “out” on this one. After learning what it takes to get these machines set up and then producing useable cable it has become clear to me that the costs are substantial. Much unsatisfactory cable gets left on the factory floor before the run of acceptable cable starts to spit out. If you are producing miles of cable it is no big deal but in this case, only about 3,000ft are produced per run of Iconoclast so the waste, combined with the opportunity cost of not producing other cable, is impressively high. These cables are complex in their geometry and are not reproducible without the sophisticated equipment that Belden has. Unfortunately they are not cheap but given what I have heard them do they are not only reasonably priced compared to their competition, they are a huge value. They are currently in the hands of several industry giants (sorry if I embarrassed you two) and I am anxiously awaiting what they have to say.
Here is a note to a local friend of mine from Galen. I don’t think he will mind me relaying this and it gives you an idea of what kind of a guy Galen is. I think that he would fit in on our forum and it’s too bad that he can’t because of Belden’s strict rules. This guy is chucking his Nordost cables for Iconoclast at about 1/4 of the price.
"Tony,
More like thank you guys for giving my cables a chance in this seemingly endless market of stuff. I hope that they are proving their real value in true performance. I made no concessions to quality and design, both. View the .PPT on your cable’s design decisions. It is pure engineering. Your leads shipped today, so they should be at Hanson Saturday. Call, but I think they will be.
DO listen to BOTH the TPC and OF speaker cable versions. They are frighteningly close, and consumers need to know this. To some, ANY difference is “huge” so I let you decide, and your wallet. I took a chance and structured the line to throw wire qulity into the spotlight. The best wire can’t hide it’s advantages" in the best design with the “worst” wire in the worst design. It’s as even as it can be, finally.
I have the new James Taylor vinyl. Side two is GREAT. And, I need you guys to come over and listen to a new VINYL head amplifier that is pretty tough! It eats my MOON LP-5.3 head amplifier alive with my new XP-30 preamplifier in the mix (I upgraded from the XP-10 $$$$ ouch!). The CLX are ruthless in detail extraction.
Best,
Galen"
P.S. The descriptions of the sound quality have been almost universal. They are clear and articulate. See my review on page 2 of this thread. I’ll put the reviews up on the forum after they are all in.