I’m not sure this guy could have landed a job in the cafeteria at a certain wire company that I know! I wish him well. What did he say?
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I couldn’t give an informed opinion of what he said. But what absolutely turns me off about AQ is this:
To paraphrase: “…We now understand what makes a great cable. We have the technology. But we’re going to offer 20 or 30 versions of our speaker cable”. So, depending on one’s ability to pay, they’re going to portion out some degree of that technology into a cable with yet another name?
I just don’t get it.
Galen and company are straight shooters. They have one technology with three flavors of conductor. That makes sense.
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AQ has the largest propaganda machine in the industry now that Monster has faded into the background. Their margins make them attractive to dealers.
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I hope badbeef is my friend as he got a cracking deal on an as-new pair of speakers, the local USA price being driven up by USA distributors and dealers. The speakers he bought have a USA retail price 55% higher than the UK, and the UK price has 20% sales tax included. The Special Edition costs an additional $1600 in the UK, but only $400 in the USA, reducing the USA premium to 25%. The additional $400 is probably about the same as the component costs. Either the USA distributor is doing a huge amount of marketing or making a big profit on the standard units.
Indeed. I believe you may now lay claim to his soul! 
Well, see, now you’ve spoiled it ; )
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There’s a “typical” audio thread on Iconoclast that closed in April. “Typical” because of circular reasoning and endless debate and conjecture over some nonsensical stuff. Lots of accusations about Galen and Kurt getting rich and 101 reasons NOT to take BJC up on the no risk trial. Pontification on the nature of double blind testing that everybody knows is the gold standard. (Sadly, people who actually create research designs don’t know this factoid)
@lonson and @BobBJC were on there fighting for air but got drowned out. I tried to post a new topic but their algorithm sees “links” in my post, which are not allowed until your new post count = 5. I’ll put it here so you guys can edit out the “links” and maybe post it at AVS Forum if you are brave. As usual, with my retarded wit, pants down and flapping in the breeze I sallied forth. (They can’t in good conscience attack me once they realize I’m an idiot!)
I would like to clear up a few things that people had questions about on the most recent thread concerning Iconoclast cabling. That thread had closed before I noticed it so I am opening up a new one and, hopefully, not a can of worms. A bit about myself. I have no financial interests in Belden nor Blue Jeans Cable but started a thread on the PS Audio website about Iconoclast cables a few years ago. (linky to our PSA thread goes here) Galen is a friend so that is a bias. I care as much about arguing about audio as I do knitting about theater. : ) Oh, and I’m a nerd. That.
Galen Gareis has indeed retired from Belden and is currently associated with BJC. He has the most patents awarded to an engineer at Belden and is responsible for some of their most successful designs in the last 30 or so years. He is not infallible and will tell you as much. He has not made one dime off the Iconoclast line save for his salary from Belden. Unless things have changed very recently, he has no financial arrangement with BJC. Is he doing this for free? Yes. If you have questions for Mr. Gareis you can contact him on the PS Audio forum.
Belden does not market to the general public. Their marketing and sales are targeted at knowledgeable engineers and other professionals worldwide and they have zero interest in engaging the consumer. Belden makes the bulk cable and BJC terminates, markets (in a limited fashion) and sells the Iconoclast line. If you have questions about the Iconoclast website or BJC you can call this number (206) 284-2924 and ask for Kurt. He can clear up the questions you might have about his company. (Iconoclast linky here)
As far as I am concerned, all the white papers or marketing in the world matters little in how a product sounds. Galen produced those papers in order to give some insight into his design process. They are not meant to be considered examples of scientific literature. The only way to determine if you like an audio product is to listen. If you don’t want to spend the time, then don’t. I prefer to listen to products that I might want to buy but I understand that that may not be for everyone. The trial is risk free if you are within the US and you need only to listen to the TPC (least expensive) versions to hear what the overall design has to offer. You might like it, you might not. I have had the opportunity to compare these cables to ones costing more than $50K and have found Iconoclast to be more to my liking. Have I listened to every cable out there? Not even close. I am not an authority on cabling and any subjective comparisons are just my opinion, nothing more. Although Galen has probably mentioned his opinion here or there (Aha! He said his cables were better on post #942 in August, 2017) he has no intention of putting down what others may find to be a pleasant sounding cable or claim that his sound better than all others or that unicorns crapped on them so that the many veils would lift. He has an opinion on many things but he tries to keep a lid on what his subjective claims are.
Double blind testing is a useful study design when an interaction with the observer might influence the subject’s data collected during the study. In order to be doubly blind both the observer and the subject must not know the physical setup of the study, whether a real drug or placebo has been given or which button shocks the socks off the victim behind the dividing wall. No magic, no “Gold standard,” it’s just a useful design when the above conditions must be satisfied. An observer may conduct a blind (single blind) test by setting up the audio system with an A/B switch and, knowing which wires are connected to which switch, leave a questionnaire on which the subject can respond and travel to McDonalds for a quick happy meal while the subject does his thing. You could do this double blind if the observer is not hungry and remains in the room. That way the observer, not having knowledge of the wiring setup, may not influence the subject. Even a slight movement, change in posture or change in breathing may influence the subject. Yelling out, “Holy ship!” at the push of a button might do this as well. ; ) I know this was long winded and some of you already know this but many do not get it, having never participated in studies. Eating those mushrooms in college and having your friends tell you what you looked like later does not count as participation in a study!
I am curious to know if anyone has purchased a specific audio product, home or professional, based on the results of scientific testing. Microphones, maybe. My transistor radio from 1968 does not sound as good as my stereo, but I have only my opinion to base that claim on.
I like to ask questions of the people directly involved when I want to know something and hopefully you will reach out to the sources that I (tried to:frown:) put in this post. I have learned a great deal from Galen but in the end all I know to do reliably is plug the darn cable into the gear and listen.
Please feel free to join the conversation at PS Audio if you like or just check out the thread for more info. Sorry, the rules don’t allow me to post links, otherwise this post would be more useful.
Cheers,
Will
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Hi Will, just to clarify: there’s no @lonson on that thread at the AV forums–I’ve learned not to participate over there.
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A thoughtful, gentle post.
I, too, avoid the AV forums.
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Ha, yes! I confused your Hoffman posts with the AVS ones. They do have different rules over there at AVS and most of the time they are just crapping on each other while going nowhere with the conversation. Well, at least when it comes to cable. It never ceases to amaze me that adults will grasp on to one detail and claim that Galen (or whomever) is a fraud. Sort of like, “You have ONE grey hair on your head therefore you have grey hair.” “No, you are wrong because you spelt it ‘grey’ instead of ‘gray’. You clearly have no idea about what you’re talking about.” The entire point is missed and the argument derails into absurd topics.
You are too kind, sir.
@wglenn - I took it as a challenge to try these cables and I will lose a lot of money, now that I have upgraded my Nordost cabling to a real reference. I did not know Galen a month ago and never went on any other forum, period. Just try them; blind, double blind… did not matter to me… 6 seconds after I knew they were better. Still testing and still finding more reasons to keep the Iconoclast cables. Bob sent me them and only said pay for shipping back ($20 max) if you think you have better cables. OK, same as if I ordered them from the cable company.com so I’m game… no way they are better than my Nordost cables. WRONG! I have not had one bit of pressure from Bob or Galen. They never put words in my mouth about what I should hear as a lot of audio salesmen will do… just try them for a month or two and the chips fall where they fall… I have never been treated with anything but respect, and hands off…
So, just try them, if they suck, tell everyone and Galen will be revealed as a fraud… but he won’t… not cause he is a nice guy… but because he designed a great product and we owe it to the bettering of our systems to find out if this product is great.
I have no incentive to make these remarks other than my experiences. Galen and Bob were not my friends a month ago… and I really did not follow this thread before a month ago.
I have 25 block diagrams of every significant change I have made in a year. These cables are the best SQ change hands down. No change comes close to the impact these cables have had… they are just cables WRONG! They are the medium my signals travel on and they impact huge…
All this bickering is news to me… why bicker… why argue over stuff. Email Bob, get the cables then post your comments from a place of knowledge. Don’t need a degree to listen, just ears. Take copious notes so you can post a thoughtful response of listening substance like @badbeef (Mark) posted. If you think your cables are better and you find theses are not as good. Post the response and the product will die on the vine for a lack of interest. I thought so a month ago till I listened. Galen or Bob never had a conversation with me till after I gave them detailed feedback: Holy $hit are these amazing. This sux, I have to sell my Nordost. I hope more people wanting Nordost cables don’t listen to these cables.
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My take on this is weird. I USED science 100% to determine HOW to make the cables. NOTHING wasn’t measured or calculated. I just added some more comment on Vp through the audio band WITH the measurement graphs and calculations off those graphs to prove it. How on earth is this a FRAUD?
The cables REMAIN as they are in measure, and clearly BETTER than legacy products be it speaker or IC RCA and XLR. Better is better technically.
THIS IS WHAT I AM SELLING, and THIS IS WHAT MADE ME HEAR A DIFFERENCE, better balanced measurements across the board. If your system does not respond to the change you’re good…use up to what last did make a difference for the cheapest price and STOP.
But, if a product comes along that is DEMONSTRATABLE improved through actual measurements, and can back those up with DATA that ALSO is ACCURATE (Vp is material dependent and won’t ever change based on design) then maybe we should consider that to sound different, it sure as heck has to MEASURE different. Some items are fixed, due to physics, and I’m not here to tell you otherwise but to SHOW YOU this is the case!
I have tons of data on how cables really work, yet on this exact same site, scads of people think audio cables are 8-ohms because the “spec” said so. WHAT DOES THE SWEPT TESTS DATA SHOW!
Every iota of data is 100% correct on ICONOCLAST. What I do not know is straight up exposed! Copper, what the hell? Why does current coherence matter? What the hell?
What I do know, is to make the cables WORK, what is indeed scientifically true needs to REMAIN true, ALWAYS. There are not one single thing that is “discovered” making ICONOCLAST that is somehow changing anything in physics. Sorry, but ICONOCLAST from that perspective is as ordinary as a black hole.
What is not ordinary, is that the geometry and balance of HOW the current laws of physics can be manipulated do indeed change how a cable sounds, it has to! Electromagnetic fields around a wire are a SUPERPOSITION of how the electrons are effected by the DIELECTRICS in a cable and the DISTANCE. Change those things and you change how the field behaves around the wire.
At some point we can say we can’t hear it, fine. At some point I hope that IS INDEED TRUE! This is where we are going as a team in this hobby. But, until we ALL pay attention to how cables are measured and tested, we can’t even begin to tell what’s the truth, what’s a lie, and what is indeed happening that we can’t yet define.
Too many lies forced me to make ICONOCLAST. Yet, I’m the fraud in all this? If we push to keep improving cable’s measured performance, this effort can take place ANYWHERE. What can be HEARD depends on your system interaction with the cable. But PSAudio, AVS forums or ANY other place that is even remotely truthful can see better is better and keep on making things better as long as the current laws of physics are applied.
I’m hiding something? I pray tell want to know what that is. To kill a secret just tell ONE person what it is. I’m a blabber mouth, I don’t do secrets and don’t tell me yours!
It can’t sound better if it isn’t designed and measure better - “Sound Designs Creates Sound Performance” in the marketing version.
There is a cost to being better. I have tried to drive the price DOWN and DOWN to half where we used to be. Costs are debatable it seems until YOU are the one running a business, then the chicken comes home to roost.
I am not ashamed of our prices at the current VOLUME we sell. Compare what we offer, how it works, and that’s that on price. You can get a better changes for less or you can’t. Fill-in those holes first, but don’t be surprised that a 2K set of speaker cables sound far, far better than going from an ODYSSEY KISMET amplifier and to a SIM AUDIO MOON W-8 amplifier for over 4X more money between the two amps and well above 10K in price!
The truth is I’m too pragmatic to ever be a fraud at anything. My goal is to allow you to know as much as I do, and back it up with the data.
We’ve sold enough cables, and had pro reviews that use hundreds of cables, to see the consistency of changes reported by end users. Far from magic, the cables do improve the clarity, sound stage positioning, imaging stability, and timber of what you hear.
Notice I did NOT say frequency response since I find that less than accurate in measurements. But PHASE responses with each frequency alter the mentioned attributes. WHEN those frequencies are aligned in time changes things. Good old L and C and the within dielectrics used. The totality of information, the spectral magnitude over time, is the same on any cable just not when we get the information. We don’t have enough attenuation to remove information. This is what needs to be better understood, how the voltage at any instant in time is a superposition of the timing in the cable due to L, C and the dielectric. Add to that how the electromagnetic field is changed by materials (copper) and the distance from the wire center to the outer surface of the wire.
Everything I do will follow with a flood of data supporting any changes. It is what and how I do things for you. My take is you invite me into your home and I want to make a good impression.
Time to me is of no value. What we DO during that time is the value. I made ICONOCLAST for you and I feel it presents value.
Galen Gareis
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I am thinking of buying the 4x1 XLR cable for AES/EBU digital.
There has been little talk about the sonic attributes of the different copper types in this application.
Any suggestions on what to order?
Raystone 1998 and I have a little project to measure 1800F and ICONOCLAST 4x4 XLR cable for impedance and Vp through audio to RF. Oh yes, we will actually MEASURE it! Nothing wrong with the real data. I’ll get it to the team here. I take some cable into the BEC at Belden Monday morning. Yes, am I still let in…as long as I do what is right on my designs.
The AVS forum is loaded with misinformation at every turn, especially on data. They will get there in time, right is right on the data. What is left is how better data interacts with your amp/ cable/ speaker when you use it.
Some are hell bent on some sort of strange marketing conspiracy stuff, and not the actual product itself. A few see the proper use of engineering yet feel it is inaudible. That’s as good a reason I have to try them. It has to measure differently to sound different. No, the more complex designs will never be cents a foot.
What do I expect on the trial? That we will see major changes in Vp through audio on both dielectric. One is foam olefin, the other is a stepped air dielectric. It is what happens to signsl in audio cable. Oh, we have data going back 40 years or so on this, it is hardly new…but it is new to most people who accepted RF at audio, and who see no reservation in doing that, as wrong as it is. I don’t see much discussion on how inaccurate that actually is based on the data.
Showing how cable really acts through the audioband seems to have ruffled a bunch of really big birds feathers. Actual data is all of a sudden, “false”? What do you go after that? Right to the data, again and again with more as we go. The cable design is the source of the data, not me.
The worst case situation is that accurate data may not be audible in my system, and it sure is expensive to make the best. Yep to both in some accounts. I’m good with that if you use the cable to decide if either of those two conditions are valid.
ICONOCLAST is a special cable sold to make quality assemblies. It will never show up as a BELDEN standard. We make tens of thousands of specials just like this. It means nothing other than the volume is low, expensive, and outside Beldens global volume requirements for standard products, no more and no less.
Would Belden make ANY cables technically wrong where it is to be used? Absolutely not. Better measures better. That’s what Belden does, always. ICONOCLAST is far better than world volume demand so it is a special market cable by Blue Jeans. A D, it is a Belden brand, says right on the label. So much for Belden bring ashamed of the cables mmeasured data. They don’t listen to ANY audio cables, it isn’t their thing. Better is better on the numbers.
The cable ONLY exists BECAUSE it meets agreed upon standards of engineering excellence by engineering review. The marker, however, can’t support every design being pushed to the limits. Not RF, not digital, not audio. This was a blue sky project, and not the only one, a see what you can learn project that lead to the BAV designs and ICONOCLAST through special market channels.
Me retiring on account of some weird conspiracy theory stuff? No, 60 years of age and 35 years of Belden service was my final answer. June 15, 2018 was 35 years on the nose, a Friday, pizza day, pay day, jeans day and my last day. That’s as simple as it gets. I’ve been working with Blue Jeans well overlapping that time frame.
I’m all for data so there it is. What I am not for is made-up conspiratorial garbage to cause harm to people and places with zero responsibility for what is said. Leave people and places in equal or better shape than when you arrive. I may be stupid, but I will treat those who discredit everything around them with the respect that they too can improve. That helps all of us so hang in there, ICONOCLAST is sold on exactly how it measures and THAT determines how it works.
Galen Gareis
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Galen
There will always be people who thru self aggrandizement will see the “conspiracies” of others. They offer themselves up as terribly informed and beyond being fooled by what they don’t understand. But they don’t see their own ridiculous transparency. Just push on and ignore these knuckleheads. They have nothing to contribute.
Ron
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I agree and, because of that, I no longer use nor purchase their products.
Give me a call when you have a chance and I can cover the attributes and characteristics of the copper variants. My contact information is on the Iconoclastcable.com website.
Bob
Galen, I think that the cynic in people doesn’t allow them to believe that you are who you are and that your motivations are just what you state that they are. You are remarkably transparent and I’ve never heard you utter a line of BS as long as I have known you.
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Steven, not to be confrontational, but I’m not sure why you were so reluctant to reveal the maker of your cables. In January you started a thread about them … see here. If you are happy with them, fantastic! No one should feel embarrassed by their audio decisions. In contrast, a lot of the folks who argue about expensive cables (e.g., the AV forums) have never tried them. Not sure I understand that logic, but perhaps for these folks (I’m NOT Directing this at you) it would be a good idea to discuss why they think this way and not dismiss entirely the possibility that the claims are in fact true (yeah, I know, dream on …). While there is a lot of BS in the audio world, Galen has been more than supportive of his claims with scientific data. Wish I had been aware of this information years ago, I’ve certainly made some less than ideal choices. Case in point, I’ve had Goertz (not Goetz) speaker cables for about ten years. Luckily I never had a problem with oscillation, but Galen’s explanation of the science behind them is revealing. Interestingly, the Isolda seems to be a similar design and has the Zobel networks built into the cables. Goertz cables have an optional Zobel network which I never tried. And, yes, I like my Goertz cables. Can they be improved upon? Sure.
With respect to Iconoclast, I do not own them, but I would love to try them. The problem is cost, which is certainly a valid concern and one we both share. I’m not really one to spend any amount to get an improvement, that would be a fool’s errand in audio! I do pick and choose what I upgrade and quite honestly cables are a tough sell for me. Do they change/improve the sound? Absolutely! Is the dollar (or Pound, Euro, …) outlay worth it? For me, not so sure. Lots of folks here think it is and I applaud them. My specific issue is I need bi-wire cables, so twice the cost. I’ve discussed this with Galen and Bob and know what I need, SPTPC, but haven’t made the leap. May just wait to see if I will stick with my Vandersteen’s or make a change (could be a BIG cha-ching$).
Anyway, this is certainly an interesting thread and have been reading it from the beginning. Many thanks to Galen for his immense sharing! And I am glad that Will is back, I love his self-deprecating humor! 