So, I have now tried the various players on my MacBook Pro. Puremusic was a bust. Here is the list and my findings. Each of these players work fine connected directly to the DAC.
Roon/HQPlayer - Works great. Best digital I have heard in my system...by far
Roon - Can't get it to work. After attempt, I need to reboot to play to DAC
Audirvana - Works great. Sounds great...but not as good as Roon/HQPlayer
PureMusic - Can't get it to work. After attempt, I need to reboot to play to DAC
Amarra - Can't get it to work. After attempt, I needed to "safe boot" and unplug/replug power to DAC. Not trying this one again :)
I am done with my cable testing. I can hear difference between different CAT5E cables and USB cables between my mac mini and the LR sender. I would like to say the USB cable is just as important as the CAT5 cable but I guess the ratio is about 40 to 60. I switched from the stock CAT5 cable to the Black Box cable then to the Belkin cable. I was able to hear the emotional content from the music after the switch to the Belken cable (quoted from the legend Arnie Nudell). I also tried out different USB going into the LR sender, there is a difference between them but not significant. The only ones stood out were the generic USB 2.0 High Speed cable and the MIT Stylelink Digital Plus (that’s the one I ended up using).
My next test is going to be adding the Jitterbug to the mac mini before going into the LR and adding it before the LR receiver.
My replacement LANRover showed up today, but unfortunately FedEx had a signature required on the package. Didn’t ring the doorbell or I would have heard him (home all morning). Oh well, next delivery isn’t until Tuesday with Fedex Home Delivery. First world problems.
scirica said
My replacement LANRover showed up today, but unfortunately FedEx had a signature required on the package. Didn't ring the doorbell or I would have heard him (home all morning). Oh well, next delivery isn't until Tuesday with Fedex Home Delivery. First world problems.
Yeah, annoying but PS Audio protecting itself. What I do is leave a note with address and signature and instructions for FedEx, and sometimes even ask them to leave it inside my (then unlocked) door, since my door is well off the street and there haven't been any problems (technically a violation). The driver is very cooperative, as he doesn't want to come back and the note is apparently good enough as documentation. If I forget, then I end up chasing the truck. UPS will also leave it with a note, but won't drop it inside the door.
crwilli said
Restarted my system this morning without the LANRover to establish the baseline. All was well.
Connected the 1.0 Meter WW Platinum Statlight USB cable from my PC into the LANRover Sender unit, Supplied Cat6 cable to the Receiver and then a 0.5 meter WW Platinum Starlight USB into the DAC of my Esoteric K03x.
The DAC would show a lock on a signal but no sound will play - JRMC is playing. Tried rebooting the PC, the JRMC and the Esoteric all in succession and each time no sound. The DAC does not always show a USB signal and often JRMC displays errors with the Esoteric ASIO drivers being unable to play 44.1 Hz.
Tried different cables both USB and Cat6. Nothing.
power is from a PPP.
For now, I am dead in the water with this unit and have returned to having my W4S Recovery inline and the LANRover in its box.
(It only played when I first took it out of the box and after about 20 minutes, it started generating the ASIO errors). Hasn’t worked since.
I had a similar problem. I am using an HDPlex LPS. I swapped in the stock power supply and everything worked again. I moved from one HDPlex 5V out to another unit and it worked. The first HDPlex had all 4 outputs connected feeding various components. The second one only had one other device connected. I’m guessing the first unit wasn’t able to provide enough current to the LR, even though all lights were on and in the proper state. Anyway, whatever works, I’m not going to spend a lot of time trying to figure it out. So you may want to try to swap in the stock power supply. If that fixes the problem then it could be your PPP.
Ok, first test. Using the supplied cables + what is shown in my signature. Only the Regen was removed for this first go through (Jitterbug stayed). This is a single Win 10 desktop USB setup, using Bug Head Infinity Blade player with its All Cures Any Cures and Rewrite options, playing flac and mp3 files. Good news is it played right off and still does (unlike my install of Bridge II a couple of days ago, which played at first but didn’t sound so hot with the much inferior foobar, then started stopping at 0:01 - to be figured out, as I’d like to compare the two setups).
Now about the sound: I find the Rovers clearly cleaner and more transparent (“thinner”) and the sound stage a bit wider and deeper. What’s not sounding as good with them is smoothness, coherence and sense of presence (or engagement), e.g., of an ensemble, such as Brian Bromberg’s on Wood. My first thought is this has to do with cables, which will take some experimentation (and ugh, maybe purchases). “Thicker” often sounds smoother and more present, which is why people often get excited about decent cheaper cables, but this seems more than that, some loss of body and everything not quite fitting together. Another possibility is a need to reposition speakers. That sometimes arises with a change in associated equipment. And then there’s burn in. Sounding better or good right off doesn’t mean time won’t make it better, and thin is a common characteristic of new equipment (I hope it’s that).
A couple of small notes for Paul: 1) the instructions say to put the Receiver as close to the computer as possible on a direct connection, but then a very short LAN cable is provided. However, I’m not sure it makes a difference, since most of us have USB cables that are at least 0.8m anyway, and that’s the important one for placement. 2) Proofing: “Principals” on page ii of the manual (mid right) should be “principles.”
I can compare it to my chain of Intona, Recovery, and 2 Mutec-3+USB’s in tandem. The Regens were sold long ago.
Source is from a Bryston BDP-2 and will be using the Curious usb’s into the Direct Stream Dac.
First I’ll try it alone, then in tandem with the others.
It would be great if the LANRover could replace the others.
Well I received the units today, everything works fine thank you. The sound quality is pretty good but the soundstage seems to be more inside the speakers than what I have been used to. Need more time to let it play though.
More to follow.
Update:
Today, I am not getting the wide and deep soundstage that I had with my above chain. But, that chain costs about $2700.
So it might not be fair to compare it to this PS $500 version. I’ll keep it connected and playing for a few more days. But at this point it is only about 25% of the quality I get with my former chain connected.
More to follow.
Update:
With the PS LANRover unit inserted into the Direct Stream Dac usb input and the output of my Intona/Recovery/Mutec/Mutec plugged into the XLR input, I can toggle back and forth. After much more A/B testing, the PS LANRover is much closer to the chain than I thought. Playing one input or the other is quite enjoyable.
What I can share is the PS LANRover has a tighter (smaller) soundstage and a little more high frequency distortion. That probably contributes to the difference in the soundstage width / depth. Perhaps with a better power supply it could even come closer. But it is a very good value.
So, I received the LANRover on Thursday, and started listening on Friday. All went well, seamless install, through Mac Mini into PS Audio Directstream DAC (Torrey, latest). Sounded great in all resolutions (44.1K, 96K, 192K, DSD64). Compared favorably to Berkeley Reference DAC/USB - SPDIF converter, could hardly tell a difference, and arguably the PS Audio set up was better across a variety of works (classical, jazz, rock) from hard drive, streaming. I’ve tried a lot of the other USB devices (Regen, Wyred Recovery, Schlit) and I dunno, they all provide some incremental improvement, but we are getting into area of diminishing returns, I fear. I will spend more time with all of these, with special attention to the LANRover. I have to note that Mac Mini sometimes can’t find the PS Audio link. It eventually worked on Saturday, but mysteriously turned on, after many attempts at getting it to “link” as an output source in the Sound-Preferences area. This may be due to a variety of reasons, but never really had this issue before (and yes, I swapped every cable, turned on/off, restarted). Anyway, an interesting device, but not clear it offers anything radically more.
crwilli said
Restarted my system this morning without the LANRover to establish the baseline. All was well.
Connected the 1.0 Meter WW Platinum Statlight USB cable from my PC into the LANRover Sender unit, Supplied Cat6 cable to the Receiver and then a 0.5 meter WW Platinum Starlight USB into the DAC of my Esoteric K03x.
The DAC would show a lock on a signal but no sound will play - JRMC is playing. Tried rebooting the PC, the JRMC and the Esoteric all in succession and each time no sound. The DAC does not always show a USB signal and often JRMC displays errors with the Esoteric ASIO drivers being unable to play 44.1 Hz.
Tried different cables both USB and Cat6. Nothing.
power is from a PPP.
For now, I am dead in the water with this unit and have returned to having my W4S Recovery inline and the LANRover in its box.
(It only played when I first took it out of the box and after about 20 minutes, it started generating the ASIO errors). Hasn’t worked since.
I had a similar problem. I am using an HDPlex LPS. I swapped in the stock power supply and everything worked again. I moved from one HDPlex 5V out to another unit and it worked. The first HDPlex had all 4 outputs connected feeding various components. The second one only had one other device connected. I'm guessing the first unit wasn't able to provide enough current to the LR, even though all lights were on and in the proper state. Anyway, whatever works, I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to figure it out. So you may want to try to swap in the stock power supply. If that fixes the problem then it could be your PPP.
I think you misunderstood my post. I had the stock power unit for the LR plugged into the PPP.
Tested the old laptop today using Foobar2000 and Fidelizer (16/44.1 FLAC). To make as much system noise as possible, I went into the power settings and disallowed shutting off USB and PCI devices when not in use.
I hooked up to the HDVD800 using a FiiO X5 on the coax and the LR on the USB. The phones in use today are the NAD VISO HP50 with an RBH cable. I synced up the two audio streams playing acoustic music. Level matching was not needed. The sound between the two sources was IMO identical. Next, I removed the LR and hooked up a cheap 2M USB 2.0 cable. I repeated the AB testing with the same results… no audible difference between the S/PDIF and USB direct.
I then turned on the desktop computer where I am testing as an attempt to induce some noise… no diff. I even wrapped the USB cable around the PC one turn.
It looks like the next step is to make up some test cables from my extras pile and hook up the o-scope. I would like to see what the eye pattern looks like going into the sender versus what comes out of the receiver.
On this one specific computer (which is VERY minimal OS) Roon seems to have issues “seeing” the Rover, either as plain 'ol USB or as a custom config. Sent a note to Bill Ernst to see if he has any ideas.
Paul, et al at PS Audio, I assume you haven’t had any issues with any Ernst-running-Roon-with-Rover computers you guys may have?
Since last post: Re-authorized Roon Core on the “problematic” computer, trashed Roon prefs, and issues still there, now including Audio Midi crashes (requiring Force Quit). Sigh.
I haven’t any issues, no. The only frustration I find is occasionally I have to go back to Bit Perfect in preferences and select another driver, then back again. That always seems to “wake up” the Mini or the Rover, I am not sure which.
When sound does not come through LR, it usually means the driver’s not being recognized for one reason or another. I just retoggle things so the computer/DAC try again to connect through the driver and it always works.
I wanted to tackle the problems I’ve encountered with JRiver, so this morning I opened MC 21 and reset everything that I could think of so that I could listen to it on the computer speakers only. I added the LANRover and DAC back in, the iMac recognized everything, and I reset the MIDI and Sound output settings, and am now able to listen to JRiver without any issue. MC 21 simply locked up on me and would not respond until I reset it.
I became curious about something, and haven’t seen anyone remark about it yet, but thought I should just give it a go. This morning, I listened to a few CD’s through the MacBook Pro, and was really very surprised at how good they sounded. Apropos of nothing, I know, but so far I have found the LANRover to be a flexible little device that has made a big difference in my system.
I am also part of the LANRover beta test program. My main interest in this product was to enable me to send high-quality music files from my Macintosh computer in my study to the DAC in my main system, in an adjacent room. Currently I’ve been doing this with the optical output of an Airport Express using Airplay, but the resolution is limited to 44.1 KHz. My goal is to use Audirvana with over sampling to DSD, which is supposed to sound quite good, and eventually perhaps to obtain some downloaded high resolution files, including DSD. My philosophy is to move cautiously and gradually, as you can perhaps guess from my vintage system. I still own and play a lot of vinyl and CD’s, and am now beginning to buy SACD’s, which sound very good to me. I am not interested in spending a lot of time comparing various combinations of cables, isolators, etc. but only in changes that provide substantial and obvious improvements in sound quality and convenience, so I can spend more time and attention on the music itself.
Here is my experience so far. Note that I have not yet listened to the LANRover through my main loudspeakers, only through the auxiliary and computer systems. Thus my comments will be limited to what works and what does not.
First attempt: connected the transmitter via USB to my iMac and via ethernet to my Lan, and the receiver to my Airport Express and via USB to my DAC (in the Marantz 14AS1). No joy; the front LED’s indicated that there was no link. The LED’s on the back, part of the ethernet ports, were lit, with the one by the AE (Airport Express) orange instead of green. I couldn’t find out what that meant in the manual; looking on line led me to believe that the AE was in half duplex mode, not gigabit. This could be the cause of the problem, and perhaps newer AE units do better.
Second attempt: direct connection; I connected the transmitter and receiver directly with an ethernet cable. Still no link. Tried re-pairing the units, as per instructions in the manual, by pressing the hidden button in the sender unit (which made the link light blink rapidly) and then in the receive unit, which did nothing. Decided the units must be defective. Called PS audio. They agreed, and started an RMA.
Tried connecting to a different DAC (in an Eclipse TD-M1 speaker). Still no link.
Tried “one more time”: disconnected the power supply to the receiver and reconnected it.T his time a link was established. It works, and iTunes could play music through the Eclipse, so I cancelled the RMA.
Tried to connect to the Marantz. with a direct connection and now a longish ethernet cable. The iMac showed a connection, (USB High Speed Audio) but no audio would play. I checked the data rate in Apple’s Audio Midi setup and saw that the data rate was set to the maximum (384 M). I recalled that this is not compatible with the Marantz, and lowered it to 192. Now music played through iTunes.
Switched to a connection through the LAN instead of direct connection, routing through the network switch. This worked just as well as the configuration in 5, using iTunes.
Switched to Audrivana, which also saw the device and tried to play, but no music could be heard. Lan, although it seemed to think it is playing. Sometimes it reported an error about being unable to connect to audio device,sometimes not.
Switched back to the Eclipse, and took a look at the Audio Midi setup app. This identified the DAC as “Eclipse TD-M1”, rather than “high speed USB audio.” However, when connected through the LANRover, the highest resolution allowed was 48.2, whereas with a direct USB connection, it is 192. This is not good. On the other hand, I don’t intend to use the Eclipse with the LANRover.
Tried again with Audrivana and the Marantz. An prompt email from Audrivana support suggested changing the oversampling settings, in case they were too high. Since I was still using no oversampling, this didn’t seem relevant, but I decided to try some other settings anyway.The results are very surprising:
None: no sound
Power of 2: no sound
2x only: works
DoP DSD 64: works.
DoP DSD 128: works.
This looks promising, since the best sound from Audirvana is supposed to be with DoP DSD.
Unfortunately, since the Airport Express didn’t work, and since there is no direct ethernet cabling to my stereo room, I will have to crawl under the house and install some before I can conveniently do extensive listening and testing. (So far I’ve had to use a temporary jury-rigged ethernet connectionfrom my computer in the study to the LANrover near the DAC, not a safe setup.)
The bottom line so far is, I think, that things are much more complex than we had hoped. In particular, the USB — Ethernet — USB connection is not exactly the same, from the point of view of the computer, as a direct USB connection. Audirvana behaves quite differently, and so does the DAC in the Eclipse. I doubt that I will be able to make meaningful comparisons about the benefits of isolation provide by the LANRover, since the configuration I am using now is, of necessity, complete different. But I hope the above experiences are useful. People who are having trouble with JRiver and/or Audirvana should try various oversampling and data rates to see what works and what doesn’t.
badbeef said
Paul - you're using the Bit Perfect app with Roon? Doesn't Roon do it's own BP thing?
If you are, might that be doing what HQPlayer is doing in my rig somehow - helping this configuration work?
Could you perhaps share your Roon settings you use with Mini and LR?
Thanks
Oh, sorry. I use Bit Perfect when I am using iTunes only. If I switch to Roon, I have to shut down Bit Perfect and iTunes, then connect via Roon. I prefer Roon’s interface, but prefer the sound of iTunes/Bit Perfect combo more.
danb said
I wanted to tackle the problems I've encountered with JRiver, so this morning I opened MC 21 and reset everything that I could think of so that I could listen to it on the computer speakers only. I added the LANRover and DAC back in, the iMac recognized everything, and I reset the MIDI and Sound output settings, and am now able to listen to JRiver without any issue. MC 21 simply locked up on me and would not respond until I reset it.
I became curious about something, and haven’t seen anyone remark about it yet, but thought I should just give it a go. This morning, I listened to a few CD’s through the MacBook Pro, and was really very surprised at how good they sounded. Apropos of nothing, I know, but so far I have found the LANRover to be a flexible little device that has made a big difference in my system.
Excellent and thanks for the help and advice on JRiver 21. This should aid quite a few with similar issues.
badbeef said
Paul - you're using the Bit Perfect app with Roon? Doesn't Roon do it's own BP thing?
If you are, might that be doing what HQPlayer is doing in my rig somehow - helping this configuration work?
Could you perhaps share your Roon settings you use with Mini and LR?
Thanks
Oh, sorry. I use Bit Perfect when I am using iTunes only. If I switch to Roon, I have to shut down Bit Perfect and iTunes, then connect via Roon. I prefer Roon’s interface, but prefer the sound of iTunes/Bit Perfect combo more.
Yes, my issue is very specific - unfortunately it is my preferred playback method/chain: Ernst Mini,Roon,USB to Junior. Sadly, it seems to be the only configuration that doesn’t work with LR.
