Presumably someone with an Oppo can put this to the test and see if the DS DAC sees the output from the Oppo as DSD…?
stereophilus said Presumably someone with an Oppo can put this to the test and see if the DS DAC sees the output from the Oppo as DSD...?It works with my Cary Cinema 11a audio processor at least. The same is the case for my Lumin.
It won’t work with the DS, I assume, because the I2s input is not HDMI audio compliant.
stereophilus said Presumably someone with an Oppo can put this to the test and see if the DS DAC sees the output from the Oppo as DSD...?NO. I don't think that's a good idea. They almost certainly aren't electrically compatible and may void warrantees on either side. Unless you can see a chart of the signals in their manuals for the pins of the HDMI connector and verify that they match the ones PS Audio uses don't do it.
There is no possible way they pass DSD unencrypted and we are not decrypting anything so it will not work!
Frode saidIt works with my Cary Cinema 11a audio processor at least. The same is the case for my Lumin.
This is because the Oppo sends an encrypted stream to the Cary which includes decrypts the signal. This is SACD/DSD over HDMI. This is an entirely different format than PS Audio’s dedicated I2S format.
It won't work with the DS, I assume, because the I2s input is not HDMI audio compliant.It is an apples to oranges issue. As Ted states, it is because the Oppo sends encrypted DSD (as required by Sony's license) and the receiver decrypts the signal (again, as required by the license). The DS uses both a different format and does not decrypt.
The only similarity is the cable used.
I thought I said the same thing…
Then what’s the point of putting two I2S inputs on the PWD and DSD if the only thing you can plug into them is a PWT.
This alone is significant as it is an impressive format. There are many proprietary formats which work superbly within a family of devices.
But, start on the first page of the thread and you will also see a number of other devices which send compatible I2S.
The obvious solution is an upgrade to the PWT, so it will play SACDs and output the DSD signal over HDMI to the DS.
Unfortunately this would be a massive hardware change to the PWT (starting with the transport itself, and going from there) and to the DS, plus very significant licensing fees for both products.
While I have no inside knowledge, I feel comfortable announcing this is not going to happen.
Elk said This alone is significant as it is an impressive format. There are many proprietary formats which work superbly within a family of devices.But, start on the first page of the thread and you will also see a number of other devices which send compatible I2S.
And how is this determined, except by hooking them up and risking the damage that Ted warns against.
Elk said Unfortunately this would be a massive hardware change to the PWT (starting with the transport itself, and going from there) and to the DS, plus very significant licensing fees for both products.Does the drive in an Oppo cost that much more than the drive in the PWT?While I have no inside knowledge, I feel comfortable announcing this is not going to happen.
I agree you have no inside knowledge, and feel comfortable in saying you don’ have a clue about what it would take to make this happen.
tamblers saidElk said This alone is significant as it is an impressive format. There are many proprietary formats which work superbly within a family of devices.But, start on the first page of the thread and you will also see a number of other devices which send compatible I2S.
And how is this determined, except by hooking them up and risking the damage that Ted warns against.
That’s what specs are for. Follow Elk’s advice (especially message 5) and you can find a small but growing number of people/products that support I2S over HDMI connectors in the format that PS Audio uses. Also raw DSD over the I2S lines is now supported by, for example, ESS SABRE chips so it’s getting more common over the same interface as well.
dan saidYou are wrong, Elk is right. We haven't found any way to avoid loosing money with an SACD capable transport or HDMI audio inputs or outputs. If we do find a way to build something for a price we think people will pay, I'm sure you'll hear about it.Elk said Unfortunately this would be a massive hardware change to the PWT (starting with the transport itself, and going from there) and to the DS, plus very significant licensing fees for both products.Does the drive in an Oppo cost that much more than the drive in the PWT?While I have no inside knowledge, I feel comfortable announcing this is not going to happen.
I agree you have no inside knowledge, and feel comfortable in saying you don’ have a clue about what it would take to make this happen.
Two i2s over HDMI inputs is perfect for using the DS DAC in its intended role as a digital hub. A lot of people with vinyl will use the NuWave phono stage / ADC over one i2s input. The other is for the PWT or a streamer (eg Sonore Rendu) or a server (eg W4S ms2).
It’s so disappointing that despite the technology being available, we, the consumers, are forced to speculate about what should be so easy… A device that can take an SACD, or bluray audio disc and output DSD directly to a DAC capable of supporting it. Instead the SACD format is dying slowly because of one company’s ignorance.
Unfortunately, I believe you are correct. SACD is still viable now but will probably disappear as downloading and streaming continue to rise in popularity.
SACD is superior to Redbook and might now dominate over high resolution PCM if the end-user could readily store and move the DSD signal around. PCM easily won as it is so easy to work with, with a basic PC.
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dan said Does the drive in an Oppo cost that much more than the drive in the PWT?First, the drive itself is only the beginning and merely one of many changes which would need to be made. Second, as an example, the drive requirements for the PWT include that the drive be capable of reading at 1X speed. This is not available in off the shelf drives and demands custom firmware.
I agree you have no inside knowledge, and feel comfortable in saying you don' have a clue about what it would take to make this happen.Dan, please do not engage in ad hominem attacks, insulting other forum members, or asserting others are ignorant. Rather, please respectfully share any knowledge you may possess on the topic. We are all ears for on-topic information.
Subjective opinions as to what you would like to see in a new product are very welcome as well.
I have often wondered whether there is any benefit from the HDMI inputs given that I don’t have a PWT. Can anyone put into plain language why we would want to use this input if we don’t have a PWT?
Given the implementation of HDMI in the PWD/DS would it be possible to provide a solution so people with computer music servers could use the hdmi inputs? Perhaps a PSA authored HDMI driver and a custom cable to switch the pins around.
Or is this nuts?
I think… It would be great IF one of the 2 I2S inputs could actually receive an HDMI signal, such as from an Oppo or any Blu Ray player.
Is that possible in a future firmware update?
billg said I have often wondered whether there is any benefit from the HDMI inputs given that I don't have a PWT. Can anyone put into plain language why we would want to use this input if we don't have a PWT?Given the implementation of HDMI in the PWD/DS would it be possible to provide a solution so people with computer music servers could use the hdmi inputs? Perhaps a PSA authored HDMI driver and a custom cable to switch the pins around.
Or is this nuts?
The confusion here is the use of the HDMI ports. This makes owners think that this port has anything to do with HDMI audio or video, but it doesn’t. These ports (with a HDMI cable in-between) are used as a practical way of transferring I2s signals. I2s is the standard way of transferring the digital signal between your CD transport and the internal electronics within the CD player (e.g. DAC). PS Audio has extended this transfer between 2 devices by using the very core signals and thus fewer conversions.
ozzymilton said I think... It would be great IF one of the 2 I2S inputs could actually receive an HDMI signal, such as from an Oppo or any Blu Ray player.Is that possible in a future firmware update?
I want to see this as well but these signals are not electrically compatible, I’m afraid. So, software alone won’t solve it. In addition you run into license and certification issues