I read it already, hence the quote and my question.
jtwrace saidFirst off are you using the 20dB Attenuator? What volume settings (on the DS) do you normally listen at? Elk is correct that until we know where you are relative to the long post above it will be hard to help.Thanks for the @tedsmith My noise isnāt with my ear up to the D2 Compression Driver of the JBL M2ās. Itās actually from my listening position and can be heard during quite passages of music. Does Redcloud reduce it dramatically or what else should I do? Beta testing Redcloud would be ideal so I can decide as to whether or not Iāll keep the dac.
Since the noise floor on a DS is fixed relative to the maximum level you could be listening at itās important to be using as much of the dynamic range of the DS as possible. This is fundamentally different than using a preamp where (with most anyway) the noise is relative to the current level setting not the maximum setting. Also, you probably donāt want to be using a digital volume control before the DS, except maybe for fine trimming, replay gain, etc.
PS Audio is quite lenient with the one month eval period, talk to someone in marketing if you are near the end of the periodā¦ Unfortunately the beta process is for functional issues not sound quality. The sound quality canāt be assessed without the final code for each file in the release (i.e. until the release is ready for release.)
The noise level of the DS is lower than much of the hardware that was used in the mastering of most of the earlier SACDs, but they take extra care with levels box to box when masteringā¦ But thatās with the caveat that I never liked the color (or worse) of the low level noise of the DS until Redcloud and have sympathy for people with systems that donāt match well with the DS. Subjectively the noise In Redcloud is noticeably quieter on most systems, but relative levels on sounds with different frequency response curves is not well defined objectively let alone subjectively and certainly depends on the systemā¦ Redcloud will help with many systems, but not all.
I have no idea if Iām using the 20dB Attenuator. It was never mentioned as an option once I gave the system chain and amp gain options. My listening numerical number on the display of the DS is no higher than ā75ā and thatās with Roon Volume Leveling enabled.
Itās in the manual, but I know that most donāt read the manuals these days. If you have the black remote, the āFilterā button toggles the 20dB attenuator. On the āwhiteā remote itās the āDAC Levelā button. On the touchscreen thereās a Gear in the upper left of the screen that gets you to some setup options including the 20dB attenuator (labeled something like high and low level.). Thereās also a new feature in the options screen in Huron that letās you lock the attenuator so you donāt accidentally blast yourself or your speakers if the button on the remote gets pressed by accident.
Try enabling the 20dB attenuator and see 1) if the hiss is still a problem and 2) if you can then turn your system up high enough to really enjoy the music. (Remember you can always turn the 20dB attenuator back off for the times you may want to let your system āripā) As a help, with the 20dB attenuator engaged you can turn the system up to 106ā¦
As my big post up higher states there are still options available to you iff these donāt work for you. And do talk to PS Audio sales if none of the above is acceptable to see if you can wait until Redcloud is out - but most customers, even with sensitive speakers can get to a system that has no hiss and is dynamic. Redcloud will just make things better.
Oh, yeah, I tried that already. There is no change in the hiss that comes from the speakers without the music playing. I can wait for Redcloud I suppose but would like to know. Iām already using the balanced out of the DS to the DCi as itās only a balanced amp.
Iām a literal minded person: are you saying nothing changes in the hiss when just the button is pressed and the volume isnāt changed or are you saying that when you are playing music at a comfortable level with the attenuator engaged that the hiss is at the same level as when you set the comfortable level without the attenuator engaged?
If itās the first call customer support, thereās no way you canāt hear a change if the attenuator is used or not.
If itās the second, most people report something about why it isnāt working, e.g. they canāt get to the volume level they need with the attenuator. If with the attenuator in 75 is still the volume level you want, you may want to use less gain somewhereā¦
No one can tell you ahead of time how not yet listened to software will affect your system, but if youāve considered and tried all of the things that I mention and thereās not change with any of them, something else is going on. If there is a change and you let us know whatās wrong both ways we may be able to help.
PS Audio customer support is always there and ready to help you.
If I press the āDac Levelā button on the silver remote the noise does go away a bunch. However, Iām out of gain though even at ā106ā on the display. I already called them and was told that Redcloud will fix the issue. Again, no music playing with a hiss coming from the compression driver. Switch dacs, noise is gone. Same cables etc. Itās clearly a dac issue.
jtwrace saidIf I press the āDac Levelā button on the silver remote the noise does go away a bunch. However, Iām out of gain though even at ā106ā on the display. I already called them and was told that Redcloud will fix the issue. Again, no music playing with a hiss coming from the compression driver. Switch dacs, noise is gone. Same cables etc. Itās clearly a dac issue.
Thanks that was the kind of information Iāve been asking for. As I said earlier more noise is expected with a single bit DSD DAC than a PCM DAC. The DAC is probably working as designed. Most people find that other DSD DAC features outweigh the inconvenience that some have setting things up at first.
I gave a list of possible remedies for too much gain in a system in the long post above. I wouldnāt count on Redcloud fixing all problems, it will make any hiss you are hearing less objectionable. If you are only hearing pitched sounds Redcloud will fix them. In general if the hiss you have is slightly annoying Redcloud will probably fix things, if the hiss is always a problem whenever you are listening then youāll need to try some way of attenuating your output or use a preamp. A preamp will allow more precise attenuation and get you about 12dB better signal to noise if indeed 75 is the typical highest level you use without the attenuator.
Gotcha. I really donāt want to use a preamp so Iām hoping that Redcloud will reduce what I have 50% and Iād be happy as the noise is when nothing is playing and in very quiet passages or breaks of music.
Is there any plan of adding the display to show bitrate to DSD 20x or something like that? That would nice if it did. Also, is there any reason to upsample within Roon first before the DS or just let it play at whatever the native rate is and let the DS do all the conversion?
I guess Iām a little lost about what youād like on the display - the DS upsamples everything to 20x so thereās no reason to put that on the display.
The DSās display in general shows exactly whatās coming into the DAC. If the low bits arenāt changing it will show how may are (16, 18, 20, etc.) It measures the sample rate and shows it instead of relying on any input metadata (which isnāt available on most inputs anyway.) Since it always does the same math inside thereās no particular reason to show the widths or sample rates of the intermediate results.
Iām not a Roon user so I canāt tell you if thereās some interesting feature of Roon thatās only available if you are upsampling.
My general advice is to at least try sending everything to the DS in itās original format. Upsampling involves a filter (or other interpolation mechanism) and different implementation will use different filtering choices. Iād like to think that the extra horse power in the FPGA allows me to do a better job of on the fly upsampling than most other programs (and that I made better choices than most other upsampler coders) but thereās nothing wrong with using another upsampler if you like itās sound better.
I know it does, just reassurance that itās being done, thatās all.
Sending to the DS in itās native format makes sense to me but was curious so thatās why I asked.
Will you publish AP or dScope measurements for Redcloud over Huron?
jtwrace saidWill you publish AP or dScope measurements for Redcloud over Huron?
Steady state or averaged measurements donāt really show the problem in earlier releases - arguably if steady state measurements showed it we would have fixed it long ago. With Redcloud the noise floor is very flat over the audio frequencies (up to about 70, 80 or 90kHz) and doesnāt depend on the signal - there arenāt any spurs to be found. Thereās a little low level THD like in any DAC, but itās lower than it used to be. Thereās also a little less THD distortion in the lower frequencies. The differences between Redcloud and Huron in the bass will be similar to the differences between Huron and Torreys in the bass. Itās hard to describe how things solidify when the bass is better time aligned with every thing else, but it makes a noticeable difference over the whole audio frequency range. I do hope we can get JA to redo his Stereophile measurements, but I donāt know if thatās in the works or not.
The bass improvement in Huron from Torreys that resulted in richer mids was what made the DS likeable for me.
What does the bass improvement in Redcloud manifest itself as to your ears and in your system?
I am using DSJ.
In Bridge II mode, the specified sample rate (96 KHz, 88.2 KHz) can not be played back.
In the source device, playback is performed at 96 KHz and in DSJ, playback is performed at 48 KHz.
it sounds very slow and warped like an old tape.
If I upgrade to redcloud, will this problem be resolved?
yacheah said The bass improvement in Huron from Torreys that resulted in richer mids was what made the DS likeable for me. What does the bass improvement in Redcloud manifest itself as to your ears and in your system?More involving music - my wife said everything I played made her want to dance and she was upstairs while I was playing downstairs. I'm always amazed at how improvements in the bass affect everything. Everything is better integrated and more effortless. I want to play things louder and if I overdo it there's less ear stress than previous releases. I know that some will want to play things softer since everything will be that much clearer.
badooki said In the source device, playback is performed at 96 KHz and in DSJ, playback is performed at 48 KHz. If I upgrade to redcloud, will this problem be resolved?Since the clocking for the bridge comes from the FPGA there's a chance that reinstalling the current software will fix things, to do that you need to first install, say Torreys and then reinstall Huron. I had a problem like you mention with the USB input once years ago with some prototype software - reinstalling the software fixed things. I have no reason to believe that there's some bug in Huron that is fixed in Redcloud which would cause your problem.
Thereās also a chance that thereās something like a solder short or piece of debris thatās causing your symptom (there are traces from the bridge to the FPGA specifying what sample rate to generate), in that case youāll need to have your DSJ serviced or replaced.
Another remote possibility, if youāve never been able to use the bridge input, is that something is wrong with the configuration of the software driving the bridge. I couldnāt guess what it might be without more details (and probably not then either.) But I had that problem with the bridge when I was first trying to use it years ago. Multiple things were wrong with my system when I was first trying out the bridge and it was also on a development system so I couldnāt say if I was experiencing exactly the same situation you are.
So it wouldnāt hurt to try loading Torreys, then Huron and perhaps checking your configuration again. Depending on what software you are using, various people may be able to help verify your configuration.
I must say, I do like reading all Tedās posts on this forum. Even though I donāt comprehend some of the technical aspects, they do make for interesting and informative reading. Together with my daily intake of Paulās Posts, both something I look forward to reading every day.
Same here!
Same here. Itās a great read. Gets right into the minutiaeā¦
I think the bass improved between Torreyās and Huron. If we are improving again? Yowsa. Really looking forward to it. Gonna get my SD card now. Happy thanksgiving everyone!! 