I do not dismiss questions merely because the answer may be unique to the individual. I find such discussions interesting and we can all learn from the responses - unless you choose not to.
I suggest first trying the speaker enclosures orientated parallel to each other, and then toe-in step by step gradually.
thanks
Something to think about re speaker placement: the side wall reflections. Toe-in is all about side reflections…not beaming (modern speakers have great 180 dispersion and don;t beam).
Side wall reflections have a bigger impact than I think folks realize. They have a massive impact on imaging/soundstage. From my experience, you deal with them in one of two ways: 1) Maximaize the bounce delay, or 2) minimize it. To maximize it, assuming you have unlimited opportunity to do so… resist your instinct to put the speakers at the end of a rectangle room… On the long wall, the side walls will be farther away… this longer reflection delay actually is used by your ear/brain to enhance space (Haas effect). When the reflection delay is too short, it screws up all kinds of things like tonal balance and imaging/soundstage among others.
Note the diagram above… shove the speakers all the way to the side walls and point in… that is minimizing the effect of the short delay (reflection) from the side walls (may introduce a “hole in the middle”). Of course another way for all of this is to put absorptive or scattering treatments on the side walls… can be done with art, books, or more formal acoustic treatments.
Rear wall is a whole 'nuther animal but is easier to deal with… just pull them out at least three feet and start from there (as a rule of thumb). Rear distance is usually tuned by listening to the bass.
Quick story: I occasionally pull out my old Realistic SPL meter to measure volume… useful for level matching inputs when A/Bing two units. I am always fascinated by how/what it reads… without going into too much tech about how the tool measures… I can stand anywhere around it… while running a 1Khz test tone… and just moving my arm can make the thing jump or sag. Standing waves and reflections are evils in a room and easily show up using an SPL tool.
Anywho, side walls are an oft neglected but powerful influencer on imaging… those speaker strategies of toe in are dicking with this… how much speaker energy is aimed at the sidewalls… assuming of course the speakers don;t beam themselves and few do beam in that tight of a vector… in other words, in a well designed speaker, toe in should not matter much on frequency response… but since speakers can’t shoot a beam directly to the side, slight toe in will have a big effect on what is bounced off the side walls (and then a big effect on imaging and soundstage).
Peace
Bruce in Philly
This is my current speaker orientation. It is working well.
It’s definitely different but I too enjoy it from time to time. It makes sense to me to remove or at least alter the side wall reflection interaction. Now we just need a way to monetize it and get rich.
Ok, Ok, Ok,… I lied… I couldn;t help myself…
I purchased an Audioquest Jitterbug $50 to isolate my USB connection, and… a PS Audio Noise Harvester $100.
Before you have my head… just read on what $150 did for me… wait for it… hold on… thinking… thinking… OK, here is what it did for me: Nothing. Yep.
OK, maybe it did… or didn’t. I just can’t really tell. I will say I have been really getting into the music deeply over the last week and can now hear some sibilance that I attribute to the KT88 power tubes I have in my PrimaLuna amp. I always knew it was there but now I seem to hear it more. Was it the $150 in tweaks that did it for me? I just don;t know… probably not. Probably not because I have been reading about alternative tubes for my Prima Luna and maybe that had me listing a bit closer to the tubes.
I dunno… regardless, I fell prey to the neurosis that is this hobby and again, I am out $150. So, I stand by original post… but I just can’t be sure “I am done”.
BTW, I don;t see tube rolling as tweaks. Tubes are the actual engine of your amp or preamp. My PrimaLuna came with EL34 power tubes and I had a set of KT88s on hand so I swapped them… and just what everyone predicted was true… the EL34s are more tube like and beautiful but the KT88s had better bass, more power, and with a more forward presentation (some good and some bad). This change was more than obvious, it was like buying a different piece of equipment. Tweaks?.. I still don;t see the value.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
A change from EL34 tubes to KT88s is quite dramatic, perhaps not in the tweak range. Fussing over which specific 7N7 or EL84 input tube is a tweak.
Bruce,
How goes the tweaking abstinence?
I find that remote control phase and balance controls satisfy the itch, mostly.
I haven’t tweaked at all since my last post… well sort of. One of my Mullard tubes in my PrimaLuna became noisy… so I put the original PrimaLuna (Chinese I think) branded tubes back in. I then ordered another matched Mullard from Upscale… then left the original PL tubes in… and left them … PL did a real good job in selecting stock tubes for their products. A few days ago, I put the Mullards back in… nice. The Mullards are a bit smoother/musical. A big difference? No way. Worth it? No. But you don;t know antil you try this stuff in your own system.
Oh wait… one more… I removed the Ethernet (Bridge) card from my DS Senior. That definitely had a positive effect. Not much, but at least that tweak cost nothing but 5 mnts of time.
No… no more tweaks in my future. I stand by what I posted at the start… tweaks just are not worth it.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
One guy’s tweak is another’s essential. None of the what I’d consider tweaks made any sonic difference. Is that the definition of a tweak?
Hey Bruce in Philly
After a sleepless night, I’m feeling too lazy to scroll up for a possible answer, but what’s a tweak?
Do you consider cables to be a tweak?
I just upgraded my power cables and was shocked (see what I did there?) at the improvement over the ones I was using.
Same thing for my inters.
Ron not in Philly
@bruce-in-philly - does Geno or Pat use Sarcone bread for their Philly Cheese hoagies… inquiring minds… Richard, not in Philly this week…
I’ve thought this about my own system. Am I tweaking, or am I optimizing, when I’m replacing the stock power cables with audiophile cables? Thing is, I can hear the improvement the power cables make, but I can’t see being able to hear much, if any, difference between a $100 cable or a $1000 cable (or a change so minor that I don’t feel it is worth $900 more). So on that, I’m pretty much done–I’m happy where I’m at, and have no desire to go on a mad chase of finding an “ultimate power cable.” I do feel better having replaced the “gimme” cables, though.
There are some dubious “tweaks” out there. I heard (or rather, didn’t hear) one at an audio show last year. These are some small wood blocks that reportedly get rid of reflections in a room. They were probably three or four inches square, maybe an inch thick. If I believed the shtick, they had all these magic healing properties for every sonic anomaly in the room. Or at the very least, reflections.
The room was “treated” with a few of these blocks placed precariously about the room. One wall was obviously a “headboard” for the beds, and a solid surface, off on the right side. One of these blocks was perched on top of it. As the rep was speaking, standing in front of one of the speakers, I clearly heard his voice as a slap-echo off of the side of the room. I also snapped my fingers a few times in the room and heard similar reflections from all over.
Did the blocks work? Obviously not, to my ears. Yet I was kind of amused to see that a well known audio reviewer had endorsed these as making positive, substantial changes in his room. Make$ me wonder if he was $omehow motivated.
On the flip side, I heard a demo of Nordost’s Sort Kones that left me shaking my head. The rep used these under a power strip. And every one of us in the room heard the difference when he plopped that power strip onto the carpeted hotel room floor–my buddies and I compared notes after the demo, and we noticed the music lost impact and clarity. Returned to the Kones, the music quality was restored.
I was not so much surprised by the Kones as I was by the demo itself–it showed me that I could hear a difference, and taught a lesson that I should trust my ears. And I was the big non-believer in the room.
I can promise you that anyone who purchases the Furutech Flux NCF Filter and places it between the wall power cord and conditioner/regenerater will not be disappointed. A dramatic improvement with a 3D holographic image and quieter noise.
Trust me you will not be disappointed.
http://www.furutech.com/images/2016/08/Flux-50-NCF-Filter.png