No idea about the USB cable, sorry.
The settings in Audirvana only affect Audirvana. Just like having BitPerfect on your system does zilch unless you’re using it in partnership with iTunes as your audio player.
Ok, so tonight became an Audirvana+ listening session.
For a while, except the recent testing, my Mac mini was not sitting in my rig so that left me with just the Bridge for streaming.
I reintroduced USB about a month ago by moving the Mini back to my rack. Jriver never really sounded good, for me, via USB so it has been getting less and less use.
Dvorak’s posts [like Paul’s pre or no pre posts] got me going so I copied some DSD files to the A+ playlist and let "er rip.
Holy Horny Toads! I had forgotten how good A+ can sound. It literally makes JR sound like it has curtains in front of my speakers compared to A+. I would say that it also tops JR via the Bridge by a remarkable leap.
It literally sounds like my speakers got twice as big and added a “wholesomeness” to the sound. Any sign of potential dryness has vanished.
Last year I posted a comment on the JR forum that I sensed a dramatic drop in SQ that got a quick “bits are bits” response. I now know that I was NOT wrong.
Elvis has returned to the building. [Elvis 57 DSD] What a great album. This is both exciting and scary as I had other plans for the weekend. I suspect that “Bitperfect” will have a similar effect and will crank it up Sat or Sun. Too bad I cannot stream A+ to the Bridge.
By the way, I forget, is there an app that works with A+ and Bitperfect? It has been a while.
Hey Gordon, I’m happy to hear that you’re having fun experimenting and listening. With the DS design, “bits are bits” is probably more true than it’s ever been before. A dramatic difference in sound between Audirvana and JRiver most likely means that they are sending different bits, and the most probable culprits there are sample rate conversion, volume control and/or dithering.
For Audirvana, I think these might be the best settings to use, at least at first:
Audio System
- Native DSD Capability: "DSD over PCM standard 1.0"
- Low level playback options: Exclusive Access Mode (others off)
- Max sample rate limit: no limit
- Limit max bitdepth to 24: on
Audio Filters
- Forced upsampling: None
Audio Volume
- Volume control type: DAC only
Sound
- Upsampling: Do Not Upsample
- Dithering: No Dither
- Max Sample Rate: Maximum Supported
- Max Bit Depth: 24
thanks. those are my exact A+ settings.
Re SQ, Since I am not up-sampling in either player, so the reason for the difference escapes me. JR claims bit perfect checking with every release but some time back I noticed a change in all the wrong places. Their target market seems to be more feature oriented than SQ. I guess I got used to it. The DoP wrapper should not have any SQ effect AFAIK.
I like the fact that I di NOT have to mess with itunes with A+. There is a rumor that he is working on a library manager at the moment so an app should follow.
I am confused. What’s the A+ reference to?
dvorak said Hey Gordon, I'm happy to hear that you're having fun experimenting and listening. With the DS design, "bits are bits" is probably more true than it's ever been before. A dramatic difference in sound between Audirvana and JRiver most likely means that they are sending different bits, and the most probable culprits there are sample rate conversion, volume control and/or dithering.Dvorak, I hope you keep posting. These are very valuable tips. Thanks! If you want to write a couple of How To's (like how to setup Audivarna, JRiver, etc.) I'll post them in the appropriate place and credit your good name.For Audirvana, I think these might be the best settings to use, at least at first:
Audio System
- Native DSD Capability: "DSD over PCM standard 1.0"
- Low level playback options: Exclusive Access Mode (others off)
- Max sample rate limit: no limit
- Limit max bitdepth to 24: on
Audio Filters
- Forced upsampling: None
Audio Volume
- Volume control type: DAC only
For BitPerfect playback of PCM audio, try these:
Sound
- Upsampling: Do Not Upsample
- Dithering: No Dither
- Max Sample Rate: Maximum Supported
- Max Bit Depth: 24
Where Audirvana can directly open and play DSD audio files, BitPerfect only works in partnership with iTunes which has no understanding of DSD whatsoever. Using DSD with BitPerfect (and iTunes) can be done via the separate "DSD Master" app which creates special hybrid files containing both a PCM conversion of the DSD plus the original DSD data. These files can be added to the iTunes library and played as normal, but when you are using BitPerfect with a DSD-capable DAC it knows how to send the DSD data via DoP to your DAC. If you want to explore this, read the manual: http://bitperfectsound.blogspot.com.es/p/manual.html
Paul McGowan saidI vote for that too, if you could include Amarra please. Paul I believe it's Audirvana Plus.dvorak said Hey Gordon, I'm happy to hear that you're having fun experimenting and listening. With the DS design, "bits are bits" is probably more true than it's ever been before. A dramatic difference in sound between Audirvana and JRiver most likely means that they are sending different bits, and the most probable culprits there are sample rate conversion, volume control and/or dithering.Dvorak, I hope you keep posting. These are very valuable tips. Thanks! If you want to write a couple of How To's (like how to setup Audivarna, JRiver, etc.) I'll post them in the appropriate place and credit your good name.For Audirvana, I think these might be the best settings to use, at least at first:
Audio System
- Native DSD Capability: "DSD over PCM standard 1.0"
- Low level playback options: Exclusive Access Mode (others off)
- Max sample rate limit: no limit
- Limit max bitdepth to 24: on
Audio Filters
- Forced upsampling: None
Audio Volume
- Volume control type: DAC only
For BitPerfect playback of PCM audio, try these:
Sound
- Upsampling: Do Not Upsample
- Dithering: No Dither
- Max Sample Rate: Maximum Supported
- Max Bit Depth: 24
Where Audirvana can directly open and play DSD audio files, BitPerfect only works in partnership with iTunes which has no understanding of DSD whatsoever. Using DSD with BitPerfect (and iTunes) can be done via the separate "DSD Master" app which creates special hybrid files containing both a PCM conversion of the DSD plus the original DSD data. These files can be added to the iTunes library and played as normal, but when you are using BitPerfect with a DSD-capable DAC it knows how to send the DSD data via DoP to your DAC. If you want to explore this, read the manual: http://bitperfectsound.blogspot.com.es/p/manual.html
Paul McGowan said I am confused. What's the A+ reference to?Audirvana Plus
Gordon - have you tried playing Ted’s bitperfect test files through JRiver to the DS?
Also, I now realise that when you talk about “app” you mean a remote control for phones/tablets. Yes the author of Audirvana is reported to be working on a whole new version with integrated library management and a custom remote app which will presumably be for iOS. Until then, Audirvana can be used in conjunction with iTunes such that the Apple Remote app can control playback. That’s also how BitPerfect is designed to work, and I suspect Amarra also. Fidelia has its own iOS app which is pretty good as a remote but terrible as a library browser.
Paul - I’m glad you are finding these posts helpful. If you get some people to verify that my suggestions actually work well with the DS then feel free to share that advice however you care to. No attribution needed, but thanks for the consideration. Heck you have my email address in your forum system so if you want me to check your version before you publish you’re welcome to contact directly.
Roger - I only used the trial version of Amarra many moons ago and decided not to purchase, so I’m not going to be much help there.
A different line of thought, for consideration by Paul and Ted…
I’m glad to hear that you’re working on something for 352.8kHz PCM handling in the DS. Not because I have any DXD tracks to play, rather just because the idea of a DAC advertising a supported rate and then not responding gracefully to it is a bit… graceless. If you have any trouble getting that code working and sounding good, here’s an alternative suggestion: detect it, mute your output, and display a message on screen asking the user to limit PCM input to 192.
Separately, on the USB hardware volume control issue as raised by the BitPerfect guys in their review of the DS: please either implement it (yay!) or stop the XMOS chip from advertising it (OK).
I know that sounds demanding from somebody who hasn’t even bought your stuff yet! 
I am really hoping to have a listen to a DS as soon as possible and expect that shortly afterwards I’ll be desperately figuring out how to obtain one for myself without ruining my marriage. Wish me luck.
Dvorak, we all wish you luck with the wife and the DS and greatly appreciate your input.
The problem I have with programs that rely on iTunes is that I just don’t like the Apple Remote interface that much when it has to deal with a large library. Still, I could live with it if it means better sound quality. I’m not really looking to try yet another server program (Audirvana) unless it’s really going to make a difference. JRMC with USB is sounding pretty good to me right now. I did find much to my consternation that AIFF files do seem to sound better than FLAC (and I’m not trying to reopen that whole can of worms). The way JRMC is set currently I don’t think it is transcoding FLAC to WAV but the documentation is so sparse that I really don’t know.
dvorak said A different line of thought, for consideration by Paul and Ted...I’m glad to hear that you’re working on something for 352.8kHz PCM handling in the DS. Not because I have any DXD tracks to play, rather just because the idea of a DAC advertising a supported rate and then not responding gracefully to it is a bit… graceless. If you have any trouble getting that code working and sounding good, here’s an alternative suggestion: detect it, mute your output, and display a message on screen asking the user to limit PCM input to 192.
Separately, on the USB hardware volume control issue as raised by the BitPerfect guys in their review of the DS: please either implement it (yay!) or stop the XMOS chip from advertising it (OK).
I know that sounds demanding from somebody who hasn’t even bought your stuff yet!
I am really hoping to have a listen to a DS as soon as possible and expect that shortly afterwards I’ll be desperately figuring out how to obtain one for myself without ruining my marriage. Wish me luck.
The 352.8k / MAC interaction is clearly a bug, and it’s fixed by implementing PCM at 352.8k which is now tested - if we had encountered it during development we would have addressed it more gracefully then (probably by adding the few lines to get 352.8k running.)
Using HID was a discussion was lost in the shuffle getting a product out. At the time I had assumed it was compiled out of the XMOS code - clearly it’s there. Because PS Audio is using essentially the same XMOS hardware design in multiple products they are dealing with the XMOS issues and we’ll probably get HID volume control implemented thruout the DS at a later date.
stevem2 said Dvorak, we all wish you luck with the wife and the DS and greatly appreciate your input.The problem I have with programs that rely on iTunes is that I just don’t like the Apple Remote interface that much when it has to deal with a large library. Still, I could live with it if it means better sound quality. I’m not really looking to try yet another server program (Audirvana) unless it’s really going to make a difference. JRMC with USB is sounding pretty good to me right now. I did find much to my consternation that AIFF files do seem to sound better than FLAC (and I’m not trying to reopen that whole can of worms). The way JRMC is set currently I don’t think it is transcoding FLAC to WAV but the documentation is so sparse that I really don’t know.
Really?Now that’s interesting. I find the Apple interface brilliant and super easy to use, but then I don’t have a big library. What happens with a big library you don’t like and what do you find that works better?
Well my direct stream finally made it to the office and my iMac is in my home . I always assumed the Mac people knew what to do with Mac,s. As they always say how much BETTER. Mac is over PC . As I have always suspected they do not and it’s more about being the cool different guy MAN !!! me and my PC are very happy . Now what confuses me even more and I am easily confused is all the fuss about Mac being the better digital audio server and few you know how to attain it.
Al
Paul McGowan saidiTunes may be intuitive, which is a good thing, but exotic and sexy GUI is not what I associate it with compared with other alternatives.stevem2 said Dvorak, we all wish you luck with the wife and the DS and greatly appreciate your input.Really?Now that's interesting. I find the Apple interface brilliant and super easy to use, but then I don't have a big library. What happens with a big library you don't like and what do you find that works better?The problem I have with programs that rely on iTunes is that I just don’t like the Apple Remote interface that much when it has to deal with a large library. Still, I could live with it if it means better sound quality. I’m not really looking to try yet another server program (Audirvana) unless it’s really going to make a difference. JRMC with USB is sounding pretty good to me right now. I did find much to my consternation that AIFF files do seem to sound better than FLAC (and I’m not trying to reopen that whole can of worms). The way JRMC is set currently I don’t think it is transcoding FLAC to WAV but the documentation is so sparse that I really don’t know.
This is also a complaint for Audirvana Plus and BitPerfect.
alrainbow said Well my direct stream finally made it to the office and my iMac is in my home . I always assumed the Mac people knew what to do with Mac,s. As they always say how much BETTER. Mac is over PC . As I have always suspected they do not and it's more about being the cool different guy MAN !!! me and my PC are very happy . Now what confuses me even more and I am easily confused is all the fuss about Mac being the better digital audio server and few you know how to attain it.Al,Al
I get what you are saying and have always smiled, in interest, when either camp claims the most home runs.
Other than the vastly different market targeting, [home users vs PC office users wanting a home machine] I think it comes down to purpose and what one is most familiar with.
Interestingly enough, the most fervent supporters of either persuasion often seem to be those who have never LIVED with both.
Cemented opinions can be very limiting. I, for one, love to find out I was wrong and it is intriguing how “right” the previous “truth” seemed at the time.
Perhaps anything CAN be right, in the right context?
When one takes the time to become “user comfortable” with both then more often it becomes a decision for "best and easiest tool for the job.
Since in the Mac world ALL hardware and most software are proprietary, then the chances of “conflicts” are considerably lessened. When a 3rd party program is approved, Apple adds all necessary drivers to an OS update.
Mac, out of necessity, targeted a more “use the programs” approach where, for a long time and much better recently, Microsoft and it’s multitude of pseudo DIY machine builders required drivers and setup routines that baffled many who were new to the computer world. Without the recent internet speeds and auto updates, I remember some frustrating moments with my Windows machines.
As for Audio, I personally prefer a stock Mac over an off the shelf PC for ease of use and sound quality. If one is a PC tweaker, then all bets are off.
Paul, there are multiple ease-of-use issues I have with iTunes and Apple Remote, none of which make them unusable. It’s just that they don’t suit my preferences as well as competing software. For example, if you have an artist with a large number of albums, there is no way I know of to skip down the list quickly. (I have one artist with hundreds of discs, for example, most of them live releases.) Other control software (e.g., MonkeyMote for foobar2000, JRemote for JRMC on PC or Mac) will let you choose the first letter of the album and skip everything in-between. With Apple Remote you have to scroll through all of them. I also tend to play individual tracks off of different albums, particularly when my listening time is limited. With iTunes/Apple Remote, if you just start playing a track it will keep playing down its own list until you stop it. To play specific tracks, you have to create a playlist. While this isn’t difficult and can be done quickly, I find it more cumbersome than other players that automatically add selections to the current playlist. To some extent this may just reflect what I am used to (i.e., I’d probably get faster with Apple Remote if it was the only program I used). There are other things I like about iTunes, such as its tagging functions. In the end, iTunes and Apple Remote can do what I need them to do so they are a viable alternative. If they clearly produced the best sound quality, I would not hesitate to use them. But, they would not be my first, or second, choice.
Al, I have been using Macs and PC’s since 1986. All things (usually meaning software availability) being equal, I will take a Mac every time due of ease of use and reliability. That said, I use a PC to rip my music because I like dBpoweramp better than any Mac software I have tried. I have been using a PC with foobar2000 to stream to the Bridge because it plays gapless and with very few issues and I have often recommended it on the forum. I’m not dogmatic about it and have never claimed that one platform is better than the other as a music server. It has nothing to do with being “cool”. It’s a question of what’s the best tool for a particular job. I recently resurrected a 2009 Mac Mini (the faster early 2009 model with the whopping 320GB drive; I’ve since upgraded the internal drive to an SSD but it worked fine with the old hard drive) and put it into my rack and connected it by USB to my DS. I’m primarily using JRMC Mac but I could also use iTunes. Both work reasonably well, including playing gapless (also, unlike a Bridge connection, there is no significant delay in playing high res files). I don’t have more issues with JRMC Mac than I had with JRMC PC. But, the Mac is small, quiet, reliable, easy to run without a monitor, etc. In this case, for me it’s the right tool for this job (plus I already owned it). I wonder how many PC users are still using 5 year old PCs as music servers? (For that matter, I have LMS running on a 2006 Core Duo MacBook Pro serving the SqueezeBox Touches in my other two music systems in the house.)
Stevem2,
I am looking into using foobar on a pc laptop to directly feed my pwd w/bridge…
Is there a set of guidelines or ‘instructions’ anywhere I can read or get an idea of how to do this?
Thus far in my search(s) I haven’t found much that explains much if any of the details (which add-ons, setup, etc.) to accomplish this task.
Any helpful suggestions?
And like you I’ve been fussing with confusers since before '85 so I’m multi-platform literate, although my dos commands are a bit rusty from lack of use…
JJ
stevem2 said Paul, there are multiple ease-of-use issues I have with iTunes and Apple Remote, none of which make them unusable. It's just that they don't suit my preferences as well as competing software. For example, if you have an artist with a large number of albums, there is no way I know of to skip down the list quickly. (I have one artist with hundreds of discs, for example, most of them live releases.) Other control software (e.g., MonkeyMote for foobar2000, JRemote for JRMC on PC or Mac) will let you choose the first letter of the album and skip everything in-between. With Apple Remote you have to scroll through all of them. I also tend to play individual tracks off of different albums, particularly when my listening time is limited. With iTunes/Apple Remote, if you just start playing a track it will keep playing down its own list until you stop it. To play specific tracks, you have to create a playlist. While this isn't difficult and can be done quickly, I find it more cumbersome than other players that automatically add selections to the current playlist. To some extent this may just reflect what I am used to (i.e., I'd probably get faster with Apple Remote if it was the only program I used). There are other things I like about iTunes, such as its tagging functions. In the end, iTunes and Apple Remote can do what I need them to do so they are a viable alternative. If they clearly produced the best sound quality, I would not hesitate to use them. But, they would not be my first, or second, choice.Thanks Steve, makes sense.