In reply to the original post -
Your every move should involve reaching for the master volume to turn it down.
Before and after every measurement.
Every time.
Tweeters are expensive, and ears irreplaceable.
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How about Bass vs, Carp mounted as diffusers.
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I have much better balance. I turned bass gain down just a bit more.
FYI noise level on the room is 27.2db
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This morning I tried different combinations with SUBs again, here the difference between last measurement with and without them
and here other graphs with SUBS
And here the difference compared to my first measurement before starting this adventure
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Do you have a preference in the sound between subs and no subs?
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Exactly what I want to understand in the next few days! I need more listening hours with the subwoofers on. What surprises me is that even without them I don’t feel the lack of bass at all.
Where they are making a different presentation is the depth of the soundstage (and all the other well known improvements), however these pros seem to have some cons, consequently altering the naturalness, like some sort of subtractive effect which I need to delve into.
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Luca, you are the only one here that saves me money somehow (examples such as Iconoclast vs. Dragon XLR and Puritan). I always wonder if adding subs to my system will be worth it. But if they would reduce naturalness in any way that will be a no-no killer for me.
I do not turn on my system loud often nowadays, so I do not even know if PSI C214 or Black box would make much difference in my situation.
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Take a look at the phase response of each channel on the overlays. You might have some out of phase bass reaching you listening position and cancelling each other.
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Thanks, you drove me on that way a few days ago. So I took a few measurements reverting the phase and moving the subs in different positions as shown on today’s graphs.
It turned out that, you were right, the big dip at 40 Hz was caused by the phase.
Having done that the dip went away completely.
The actual configuration is in phase, subs are working well hour after hour. I always liked using them in my system but I have to admit that I like also the sound without them lately. I never thought it possible before switching them off last week for the first time.
Measurements clearly show a difference, in some areas for the better. I think at this point it’s a question of personal preferences.
They are able to fill the room, more body and energy, a warmer feeling, the sound is richer but I’m still missing something: that kind of natural beauty in voices, airy and detail, more natural and clean. My pretty dead room maybe has a different response. I tried different crossover settings, doing measurements. Around 8 clicks is the sweetspot. I’m going to try also different gains levels to find out what works better.
I’ll keep using subs for a while, time will tell.
It’s too much room dependent, Donald. Mine is very different as you can see from the measurements recently taken. It could be qualified as dead, don’t like this word and I prefer call it very quiet, it implies a lot of things: silence, subtle details extracted at the limit of “analytical” and so on. It is very pleasant but requires caution.
I encourage you to give subs a try this time, don’t take decisions based on my comments. It should be easy for you to borrow a pair of subs from your dealer and or a friend nearby.
If you had asked me just a few days ago, I would not have hesitated to strongly recommend that you add subs.
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Glad you got your phase issue figured out. For me, that is one of the most useful analytics from REW.
As for subs, I gave one on mine four years ago. I could not have them to integrate well with my speakers, and I had some smearing on the mid-bass and some sort of “late boom” in the deep bass.
I found myself cutting them out with a 3rd order low pass at 40hz. I just bought another bass module to my Sonja speakers, and got rid of the 4 subs. Life is much easier now.
Enjoy your music!
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I was able to get some more room background noise measurements this morning before the rest of the house woke up. There was also no wind so no wind noise or noise from the waves hitting the shore of the lake.
I have readings right at 36db which is much lower than I thought I would have.
It kept fluctuating into the mid 40’s on a regular rhythm and it took me a while to figure out that the dog was snoring and that was the rise. 
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Ah ah ah REW for dogs, fantastic! To measure noise floor of the room what is more appropriate dBA, C or Z?
dBC or Z Slow (1 sec samples) is recommended. C slow is most common
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Not sure if some have seen this, but it helps to know what instruments play at what frequencies when chasing room measurements, acoustics etc.
Cheers.
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I have seen that and keep it nearby just for info.
The REW graph can also display the general frequency bands across the top if you turn that option on.
All good stuff
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FWIW - I looked at REW and that pdf and ran scared. Did not want to do all that. I did want to use a convolution filter with Roon though. I found a program called Focus Fidelity. Much easier to use. As Al mentioned, you put the mic in various locations and get an average. No idea why all these software (including my AVM70 - Arc Genesis) want to do it that way and not just the MLP. Very strange.
But in the end this software was very plug and play. easy adjustments to make. I did after room treatments and kept making room changes to help tune and doing the software run after. they work together.
Same with Focus Fidelity. Their manual says way…there is a scientific reason why. I forget.
But in the end it does work great. I can set up using a DDC as the the MKII DAC is not found by the software. I chatted with Ted/PS Audio/Focus Fidelity… non of them knew why. New USB hardware or something in MKII. Either way I used my old DDC from computer usb out to I2S into DAC…perfect. Do not use a usb cable longer than 15ft. I found out the hard way. 2nd tip, dont do anything above 5kHz. Most room correction built into these things do not do a good job above that. Good room treatments can fix that. I tried 3khz, 5khz, 10khz, and 20khz upper limits on the tunning (with FFidelity you can change parameters and not do new measurements but create new filters) and I found 5kHz was the best sounding. Then I looked at ARC from Anthem, and guess what, they do 5khz by default too. So i heard right.
its $250 one time payment and they give you a key. If you use Roon and want to try it, its not that expensive and is much easier to try than REW. REW is Free, but more manual and time consuming.
My old room had 7.2ft ceilings and was only 13ft wide, so I had issues. But it did a great job at smoothing things out. Big nulls still issue, but nothing can fix that but moving things.
The reason is that they pull the peaks down to match the lows. The resulting filter is non destructive so doesn’t sound bad. It’s almost impossible for software to boost low spots with anything listenable. It’s longhaired math way above my education or interest.
You should do the same thing if making filters in REW.
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Even though measurements seems to be better with my subs on, I’m going to pack them during next weekend. They’re going to sleep in a garage for while.
A decision based on what I’m hearing that apparently negates what I’m reading from REW graphs.
Having said that, REW is helping a lot with different speakers set up and acoustic treatments.
I’d like testing a resonator (like Acustica Applica for instance) one day, if I find a dealer nearby able to borrow them before purchasing. Don’t know if they are able to work only at a specific frequency range like 90-120 Hz.
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You might try to place the subs next to the main speakers so the front face of the sub lines up with the front face of the mains.
Then set the subs crossover at the main speakers -3db freq (if known) with a very steep slope (24db/octave or more). The sub freq could be in the low 30’s or high 20’s depending on your speakers.
That way the subs are just a part of the mains.
You can also face them toward the wall behind the mains but still lining up the faces.
An external crossover is really what is needed (miniDSP or similar) to accurately integrate subs to mains but these placements might give you a little more info to work with.
I agree that if the integration isn’t perfect the music just doesn’t sound “right” for lack of a better term.
I haven’t had time to do any room sweeps here since getting the system setup but maybe this weekend I will get a chance to. The system does sound really, really good though. I am happy not knowing what problems may exist in the room.
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